Questions of Reliability and/or Authorship

Anglagarrd, Becomming God in our understanding does not mean these few things:1.) Becomming omnipotent
2.) Becomming omnipresent
3.) Becomming omniscient
4.) Becomming an object of worship
5.) Becomming a Creator of universes(There may be other aspects I could add to that list)Greek Orthodoxy has taught a kind of Deification or Divinization for centries.Athanasius refered to by some as "the father of orthodoxy" said that God became man so that man might become God.In "becomming God in life and nature but not in the Godhead" we do not mean that ALL attributes of God are communicable. But a son of a horse is a horse. The son of a cat is a cat. The son of a gerbil is a gerbil. The son of an eagle is an eagle. The son of a man is a man.What then is the son of God? In a very real and biblical sense the son of God is God in life and nature but not in His Godhead.We believe that Jesus is God/Man. And the Apostle John says that "we shall be like Him" (1 John 3:2. Witness Lee didn't put that in the Bible. The Holy Spirit through the Apostle John did.Will you resort to "guilt by association" and tie John in with Mary Baker Eddy also Angelgard?Sons of God are in the same family as God and share the life and nature of God. They just do not share the Headship of God.The Apostle Peter said that the disciples (not just those in Living Stream Ministry or who meet with local churches reciptive to Witness Lee) are "partakers of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4)".So if we proclaim to our Christian brothers and sisters throughout the world wherever they meet, that we Christians are "partakers of the divine nature{" (2 Pet .1:4), how does that make us superior to others? That is part of the Gospel. Am I right?Peter's phrase "partakers of the divine nature" does not simply observers or spectators. Partakers are participants. So it is the common portion of all Christians that have received Christ into them that they are participants and "partakers of the divine nature."Where is the sense of superiority in proclaiming what is the biblical birthright of all believers in Christ?Now is when the responses get interesting. Your reply AG?Page not found – Contending for the FaithEdited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Anglagaard,Thanks for providing this link with the other links you referenced from the Apologetics Index:The Testimony of the Local Churches and Living Stream Ministry Good work Anglagaard!Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Yep. Thirty years and thousands of thousands of pages, hundreds of messages, lots of repetitions.Do you mind if I get the reference? Oh! I see. Lee said "All of God's redeemed people". I thought Alnglagaard was insituating that only an elite few at Living Stream Ministry were to participate in this. You know, only those under a Right Wing authoritarian conspiracy?Oh! I see. Lee said " BUT .... not in the Godhead". I thought Anglagaard was insinuating that some people at Living Stream Ministry were going to somehow put God out of business or something, replacing God.Oh, I see. He is talking about a collective and corporate city - New Jerusalem as God's goal rather than a million individual new Gods replacing the one God.Well, the New Jerusalem is called the Bride and the Wife of the Lamb in the Bible. That must mean that the New Jerusalem must MATCH Christ in some way. And we believe that the Bible says that Christ is God-man.So if the God-man is going to marry a Wife and Bride she must be LIKE HIM in some profound way. Is that LSM's concoction or is that what the Bible says? See Revelation 21 and 22 please.Processed and consummated Triune God? Yes I understand that. I have heard that the Word Who was God became flesh (John 1:14). I have heard that the last Adam became a life giving Spirit (1 Cor. 15:45)Do you have a problem with any of this? Lee is just elaborating on what is right there in the Bible.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Instead of tossing links back and forth why not discuss with me what you want to talk about?This is a Discussion Forum and a Bible Study.What in the first paragraph has you troubled? I looked at the outline of the first chapter. I am not sure what you meant by "first paragraph".Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I'd be honored. I have enjoyed your solid articles very much.Since the opposition arose many articles have a polemic flavor to them. I will try to include links which do not have that understandably defensive posture.Here is something onChristian Websites set up by the workers Christian Web SiteThe Scriptures - The Scriptures - Source & History: refs. include Witness Lee, Watchman NeeGod's Economy - God‘s Economy: recovered by Witness Lee, enjoyed by local churchesChrist's Incarnation - http://www.christincarnation.orgRegeneration - Witness Lee & Watchman Nee teach regenerationPray Reading the Word - Pray-reading: refs. include Witness Lee, Watchman NeeWitness Lee - Witness Lee A Bondslave of Jesus ChristWatchman Nee - Watchman Nee A Seer of the Divine Revelation LOL!I am somewhat familiar with the Princetom NJ Church of Christ. And I have been to Bible Talks at the Boston Church of Christ.A long time ago I was immersed by some brothers from the Church of Christ in Princeton NJ. That was around 71 or 72. This is a problem. We can learn from one another if we are honest and up front and willing to learn.I have learned some things from people with whom I did not agree on this Forum. That is some things. I don't mind.Browse around on those websites. I highly recommend that you search for a theological publication from LSM called Affirmation and Critique. That magazine is specifically tailored for those a little more versed in theology education or church history.Affirmation & Critique - A Journal of Christian ThoughtYou can ask me about my own experience or anything else if I can be of help.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Hey, you get tired too? So likewise I didn't stop and read through every article in your link when I'd rather discuss our topics here.And if YOU had read your link to Apologetics Index you might have realized that it included a thorough defense and confirmation from Fuller Theological Seminary saying that the local churches were in fact, NOT a cult.F to you too. You didn't read it yourself. You pointed me to some information. I pointed you to some likewise.No. I didn't spend the next half hour reading a bunch of things that I have pretty much heard elsewhere for some years now. It was like left over chop suey. Real big deal - "I'm in a cult." Sure. You too. And stop lying. You're not "sorry" at all.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Anglagaard,Your reference to a Spirit filled person from Matthew 25 is in error.Actually those to whom Christ is speaking in Matthew 25:31-46 who represent the "sheep" are not Spirit filled and are probably not even Christians.There are three parties at that judgment scene:1.) The sheep
2.) The goats
3.) These the least of the brothers of Christ.The brothers of Christ, Who would be the ones Spirit filled, are the criteria against which the sheep and the goats are judged. If they are the criteria related to how the sheep and goats are to be judged then they cannot themselves be in either catagory.So the sheep are not the least of the Lord's brothers. But they are examined as to how they TREATED the least of the Lord's brothers.This is a judgment of the living nations who are on the earth at the time of the conclusion of the Great Tribulation and the commencement of the millennial kingdom.To have nations for the saints of God to rule over there must be some nations preserved from the church age and transfered into the age of the millennial kingdom - the kingdom prepared for the sheep from the foundation of the world.That is unless you think that for the saints to reign means that they reign over each other, which is not very logical.The sheep nations then are restored to a condition of Adam before the fall of man - innocent and with no particular reason to die. That is the kingdom prepared for the sheep "from the foundation of the world."We can discuss this further if you don't understand.Now you can kind of "borrow" the passage because so many things in it are commendable. But actually it does not refer to Christians. It refers to the Gentile nations which do not follow Antichrist as the goats did, in the end times.

We don't denominate at all. Unless you want to call not receiving unbelievers into the church as members is denominational. The fact of the matter is that the local churches practice receiving all believers. That is why it is truly "local". Any believer particularly local to the assembly, living in that city, is to be receieved as a brother if they are Christians.So Corinth is the ground for the church in Corinth. And Ephesus is the ground for the church in Ephesus and Colossi is the ground for her church ,etc,etc,. We have returned to this vision and practice.That is not denominational. I am not sure what a cult is these days except that it is something which people are afraid of. I see. Okay. Maybe I saw red meat when I saw the word cult.Regardless, I don't go out of my way to digest attacks against the local churches. I know pretty well the standard and the shifting crriticisms - ie. authoritarianism.No one ever told me where to live, what to wear, who to marry, where to work, etc. Most of the time when I go for advice to the elders we end up praying and seeking the leading of the Holy Spirit. I don't out and out refuse. If you have something you want to say, you say it here in the discussion.Discussions which end up in linking to posts are really not dialogue anymore. Your perogative. I'll bear the responsibility before the Lord for that. And you will bear the responsibility for all the things which you have written in this Forum about God and His Bible.Sorry though, if I got too personal. I apologize. Please quote me where I proclaimed near perfection. This is the second time you have judged and made a claim about me that I have ASK YOU to provide quotes.The other time was my supposed claiming superiority over others. I don't think you ever followed through and provided a quotation.I get the impression that when I say that I believe the Bible to a certain extent that you regard this as my saying I am superior to others who have some other kinds of beliefs about the Bible.We'll it does not mean that I am superior to anyone. I just think they are wrong.Now you have TWO quotes I expect to verify YOUR judging of me. Here's your chance to shine. Which did I deny ? Enumerate which I denied.Oh, failing to portray the best spirit is not denial but a failure. I'm much worst than you could ever know. I am really bad.Don't expect me to say AMEN to all your ideas because I am accutely aware that the Holy Spirit still has a lot of work yet to do in me.
That tactic won't work. I'll still point out where you're wrong if I feel to.Have a blessed day.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : Left out the word "not" Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I expect from Anglagaard.

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1.) A quotation showing that I said I was superior to others on the Board

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2.) A quotation saying I was near perfection.

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3.) A quotation specifying which teachings of Jesus in Sermon on the Mount I denied.

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Anglagaard is mad because s/he thinks a good Christian should just humbly take in hook, line and sinker all manner of modernistic and heretical thoughts for fear of appearing judgmental.Forget about it Anglagaard. I won't wait until I am perfectily matured to point out where you need to take your modernistic errors back to the skeptical website or handy dandy skeptic's book you got them from to try to pass them off on the rest of us unchallenged.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : "Crap" softened to "ideas"Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Anglagaard, Particularly, when you make charges which cannot be backed up with quotations from me - it is best to discontinue. You should produce my quotations or retract your charges. Then we could move on to another subject, ie. the local church.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I criticize Archer handling of parts of the Bible. This criticism has nothing to do with my supposed superiority over Archer as a human being.No, no my criticism in that discussion was not an argument over some innate superiority as a human being I have over Archer. It is not the first time I apologized to someone for misunderstanding something.I don't see how you're drawing my attention to this means anything. Other than the fact that you can say "See, you apologized for something" ... so what?Neither before nor after the apology is there any argument from me about my innate superiority as a human over Archer. I can disagree with someone without using our differences to imply relative human worth of either party. I think the Bible is true when it says "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God."So any sense of superiority of one sinner over another is illusionary. I'm only a sinner saved by grace.We may have different views on what is taught in the Bible. That does not lead me to feel any innate human superiority over those who have contrary interpretations.In short, you can be wrong about something in the Bible without being inferior in any way as a human being to me.The issue is not who is a better person. There is none good, to my belief, but God only. I don't usually to apologize for people's misunderstandings of something I wrote. It sounds to me like you just misunderstand what I wrote.Christians are in the process of being perfected. It is not a matter of on again off again perfection. Salvation is a process of being perfected.Of course the perfect One is Christ Himself. And we stand upon His perfect merit to participate in the process. We claim that all Christians are underging the process of sanctification and deification. It is a common benefit of all believers whether they meet with us in the local churches or do not.All believers who are born again are destined to grow and mature in mature sons of God. That is what the New Testament teaches. That is not special dogma of the local churches.Your dsesignation of the local churches as a "cult" I am more likely to wear as a badge of honor. What "weird theology" is that. I haven't seen you point out any weird theology. I have seen you allude to some misunderstandings of Christian teachings in the New Testament.I haven't seen you point out any "weird theology" yet. And strawmen arguments I cannot claim as my "weird theology".What is weird? Is regeneration weird to you? Is santification weird to you? Is being conformed to the image of the firstborn Son of God weird to you? Is deification weird to you? Is glorification, transfiguration, transformation, resurrection, sonshiip, and marrying Christ as His Wife and Bride weird to you?Is so you should prayfully continue to read and study the New Testament.Is becomming the Body of Christ weird to you? Is matching Christ Who is God/man, in life and in nature and in expression weird to you?Is being given the authority to become children of God weird to you?I'm sorry that all these biblical teachings are weird to you. I would suggest that you continue to read prayerfully. These teachings are in the Bible and should be the to common understanding of all lovers of Jesus. I am not sure what you mean here. But again, deification is the common destiny of all who are regenerated and born of God. All who receive Christ are destined to be sons of God.Greek Orthodoxy has taught deification or theosis of the believers for centries. In the local churches we may be drawing more attention to an aspect of truth which is neglected by many Christian teachers.It is nothing new that we have invented. Where have any ministers of the local churches spoken that deification is only the expectation to those who recognize Nee and Lee as divine prophets?Could you please explicitly quote the message or book that stated the above concept. What book? What page? What paragraph? What message? Where was it said by any teacher connected with the local churches or whose words are published by Living Stream Ministry the above concept.If deification is the destination of all believers who do or do not even KNOW or agree with Witness Lee or Watchman Nee, than how can you justify your concept?Produce your quotation to justify the accusation made. I bet you cannot.I think your accusation is a lie at worst. At best, you are just paroting some accusation you read from some long ago discredited critic. This is a false accusation. It is Christ Himself who is the determining factor as to whether we will be saved or perish.The only superior one is Jesus Himself. The rest of us are sinners saved by grace or lost because of unbelief in Christ.Rejecting Nee's or Lee's ministry may slow one down as to being perfected. It certainly cannot stop Jesus from eventually obtaining the the will of God with any believer:We can say with the Apostle Paul concerning every born again Christian - "Being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun in you a good work will complete it until the day of Christ Jesus." (Phil. 1:6) Incedently, Paul wrote this passage over a thousand years before either Watchman Nee or Witness Lee was born. So obviously the Phillippians attitude towards the two men had no bearing on Paul's expectation that God would complete His work in them. There is one God. But the one God has a plan to dispense His life and nature into many sons of God.If the term "gods' bothers you then substitute "sons of God". That is saved people who have come into a life relationship with the Divine Father so as to extend the Divine Family. God is the Head and Father of this corporate entity and the saved sons of God are the Body or extension of this Divine / Human incoporation.Nothing is mentioned in Romans 8:28,29 about a believer's belief in Nee or Lee as divine prophets. It only says that the believers are to be conformed to the image of the Firstborn Son of God that He may be the First among many brothers.The many brothers corporately constititute the Bride and Wife of the Redeeming God - the Lamb. This is in Revelation. We are processed to match Him that we may marry Him.Read your Bible. That is right. I am in the process. And all believers in Jesus are also in the process with me. We may slow Him down b ut we cannot stop God from deifying us. We may cause Him some trouble because of dragging our feet. But eventually we who believe into Christ will all be made recipents of God's life and nature to express God as sons of God.He became like us so that we may become like Him.Have you not read?"Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not yet been manifested what we will be. We know that if He is manifested, we will be like Him because we will see Him even as He is." (1 John 3:2)What do you think the Apostle John means when he teaches that we the born again Christians, shall be like Him? Do you think he means we shall be like him in that we will wear a first century robe and walk in sandals? Of course not.Within and without we shall be divinized to be like Him in life and nature and expression. He is God/man and we the born of God will be perfected to be like Him as Godmen.By the way, when John wrote that Nee and Lee had not even been born yet. So attitude towards them and their ministries had nothing to do with it. Nonsense. We should learn not only what the Bible says but what it ALSO says.Didn't Paul tell the church in Corinth that they had to judge one in their midst? So sometimes we Christians are called to judge (1 Cor. 5:12,13; 6:1,2).Besides, the passage refered to in Matthew simply says that if we as Christians DO judge we should expect to be judged.So it means that one must accept the responsibility that he will be examined in judgment by Jesus if he himself examines in judgment. I accept that responsibility in order to point out by judgment and examination, a false teaching.If someone comes into the Bible Study here saying, for example, "The New Testament does not teach us that Jesus is to be worshipped as God incarnate." I reserve every right to "judge" that person regardless of "Judge not the you be not judged." I think you are misapplying the passage to mean accept all manner of heretical ideas a true teachings of the Bible when they are NOT. I have little desire to try to straighten out the crooked and twisted ignorance of one who won't carefully examine the teachings of the New Testament. This amuses me a little. To be accused of Humpty Dumtyism.It is kind of cute, yet your twisted accusations are really not an amusing matter.Anyway, deification through the life and nature of God is a long held belief. If teachers neglected it that doesn't make it not appear in the Bible.Sons of God are God dispensed human beings who become "gods" of sort and collectively and corporately are constituted into Mrs. Jesus Christ - His Wife and Bride to one day match Him and marry Him.As Adam said of his wife ' "This time it is bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh ..." so one day we also who have been regenerated with the divine life, will match Christ the Godman so as to be His perfect counterpart.This is the climax of the 66 books of the Bible. God finally obtains for Himself a match, a counterpart, a Spouse, a Bride and Wife.Be became like us so that through His extensive salvation we may become like Him.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.