One Word Got Me In Trouble.

Crashfrog countered your replies about the Aztecs, Romans, and African cultures, but what about the Japanese, Chinese, Greeks, and various middle-eastern cultures?The Japanese and Chinese have had unbroken and overall very sophisticated and technologically, educationally, and philosophically advanced societies for many thousands of years (starting several thousand years before Christianity), and continue to be hugely successful countries, by many measures, today. Neither of these cultures have ever been Christian nations.

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Which of these enjoyed the blessings of individual freedom as well as the good life we have enjoyed these past two centuries under pagan religious ideologies?

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Um, Buz, do you really want me to believe that Christianity promotes individual freedoms?The only reason we have all of the individual freedoms we enjoy today is because several of the framers of our constitution were quite anti-religion and anti-government.

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At the end of the day, you have to recon with the fact that, by a measure of standard of living/poverty rate, Finland, Sweden, and many other countries which have lower rates of religious attendance, lower numbers of citizens praying, etc. provide a better standard of living for the majority of it's citizens than the US.
By a lot, too.

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I couldn't find a lot about how these nations fared under paganism. Nobody fared very well under RCC/Romanism

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Nobody at all did well? I find that kind of difficult to believe. I believe that Portugal, a historically very Catholic country, was once the indesputed naval ruler of the seas, and it's explorers were the best in the world. They once held lands all over the world and the riches from these lands made the kingdom rich.

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and even after the reformation nothing in Finland compared to our heritage here in the good ole US of A

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Our initial Puritan heritage is one of intolerance and religious extremism.Later, those like Jefferson and Madison and Franklin saved us from those who would have made the US a much more religously-founded place.

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with all seesaw turmoil with Russia and Sweden as to who ruled them, they or foreigners. I don't think your post makes much sense atol. Sorry about that. My friend, you need to be a little less critical about my performance here in town and exercise a little self examination on occasion.

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What, by "being less critical", do you mean, "stop analyzing your posts and commenting upon them?" Sorry, that's not going to happen anytime soon. LOL!What I find interesting is that, while you wrote a number of sentences, you actually did not address my quoted point, for the third time, which was:

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At the end of the day, you have to recon with the fact that, by a measure of standard of living/poverty rate, Finland, Sweden, and many other countries which have lower rates of religious attendance, lower numbers of citizens praying, etc. provide a better standard of living for the majority of it's citizens than the US.

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Isn't it your contention that the more "Christian" a country's citizenry is, the more successful it will be?Clearly, the situation in Finland, and several other countries, contradicts your claim, doesn't it?[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 07-25-2003]

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Your depiction of Mohammed's polygamy, enslavement of captives, slaughter of innocents, marriage to children and all the rest are very interesting, but the lives of Moses, Joshua, David and Solomon make Mohammed look like a minor league player.

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Better read up on these four and on Mohammed, db. I think you're mistaken. Btw, That your counterpart in debate doesn't agree with you doesn't make your opponent dishonest or a liar. You should consider that when participating in public forums.Also, thanks for your advise on posting. I wasn't aware that it presented a problem, but I do see you point.[This message has been edited by buzsaw, 07-25-2003]

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The Japanese and Chinese have had unbroken and overall very sophisticated and technologically, educationally, and philosophically advanced societies for many thousands of years (starting several thousand years before Christianity), and continue to be hugely successful countries, by many measures, today. Neither of these cultures have ever been Christian nations.

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Did you read where I either said or implied that there were exceptions? I doubt much is known about how "hugely successfull" the Chinese and Japanese were several thousand years bc. Then too, it depends on what you consider to be hugely successful. Haveing a few cows and chickens and a garden? How much personal freedom did they enjoy? How superstitiously fearful were they of offending their home made fettish gods?

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Um, Buz, do you really want me to believe that Christianity promotes individual freedoms?

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The only reason we have all of the individual freedoms we enjoy today is because several of the framers of our constitution were quite anti-religion and anti-government.

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Which ones were anti religion? You can't say Jefferson was anti-religion. Under his presidency, the Bible and Watt's Hymnal were used in the DC public schools. They were all against government establishment of religion, as were all for free exercise thereof. Most were Christians and all had respect for the Bible and it's principles. Among plaques and inscriptions on the DC monuments and buildings were included many Biblical scripture quotes. Have you ever walked around the DC archives and buildings? No denying the Biblical influence after a thouough inspection of these.

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I believe that Portugal, a historically very Catholic country, was once the indesputed naval ruler of the seas, and it's explorers were the best in the world. They once held lands all over the world and the riches from these lands made the kingdom rich.

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How free were they? Schraff we could go on and on about how this or that country fares compared to the US. The world knows we're the place so many have wanted to migrate to over the decades past. I see no point in going on and on haggling over this. The record speaks for itself. I've made my points and you yours and I've put about as much time into these national comparisons as I care to or have time to.

db writes:

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Your depiction of Mohammed's polygamy, enslavement of captives, slaughter of innocents, marriage to children and all the rest are very interesting, but the lives of Moses, Joshua, David and Solomon make Mohammed look like a minor league player.

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I am well aware of them. Are you? If you are, then you should answer the challenge. If you are not then you should take the time to become aware and meanwhile desist from your attack on the other guys holy man.You think I am mistaken? That's to be expected, but it doesn't comprise a rebuttal. Refusing to acknowledge the reprehensible behavior of these biblical heroes while bashing the prophet of Islam is more than dishonest. It is despicable, foolish and potentially dangerous.It has nothing to do with whether you disagree. It has everything to do with refusing to admit evidence. You are not admitting to the bloody chapters of your own heritage. You are so busy beating up on Mohammed that you cannot see how much he learned from Moses. No one suggested that you are a liar; Until now. Why would you suggest that?db------------------
Doesn't anyone graduate Sunday School?

Some info concerning Jefferson and the founding father's beliefs...Jefferson: Madison: Adams: As for Christian motifs on US Capitol buildings please see the following links:The Architecture of the U.S. Supreme Court
http://www.cr.nps.gov/...e_books/butowsky2/constitution9.htm
The Thomas Jefferson Building: Part 1 (On These Walls: Inscriptions and Quotations in the Buildings of the Library of Congress, by John Y. Cole)Though there are Christian lawgiver motifs in the Capitol Building, such as Moses, they are equally interspersed with other eastern lawgivers and ideals, ie Solon and Confusious. Biblical motifs are no more prominent than anyother.I had a great link a few months ago and I can't find it now...damn.------------------
Asgara"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

"Past" perhaps being the operative term, in terms of Scandnavian immigration. I don't see all that many Finns and Swedes immigrating these days - and I do live in Minnesota, where I would expect them to wind up. So far the quality of life score still stands: Scandanavians: 1; Americans: almost 1.

No, I did not find "it" by following your instructions.If you mean the original site, it isn't there.If you mena the site copying that particular piece of text, I have already explained why that is not important and I had ALREADY found it looking for the original site.None of the other sites copying that particular page appeared to be reliable either.

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Did you read where I either said or implied that there were exceptions? I doubt much is known about how "hugely successfull" the Chinese and Japanese were several thousand years bc.

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The point is, the Chinese had a thriving and continual culture for around a couple of thousand years before Christianity.I guess you might want to define what you would accept as "success" before we go any further.

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Haveing a few cows and chickens and a garden? How much personal freedom did they enjoy? How superstitiously fearful were they of offending their home made fettish gods?

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Wow, can you be any more offensive, dismissive, and ugly in your condescention towards another culture's religious practices?How is christianity any more "sophisticated" or "modern"? You are quite as superstitious and backward as you think the ancient Chinese were in your rejection of most of modern science in favor of your mistranslated nomadic desert tribe origins myths.

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Which ones were anti religion? You can't say Jefferson was anti-religion.

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The important question I wanted you to answer, Buz, but you didn't, was, "Do you really want me to believe that Christianity promotes individual freedom?"

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How free were they? Schraff we could go on and on about how this or that country fares compared to the US.

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Yep, we could. That's what happens when you make broad, unsupported claims which you then defend despite the evidence being stacked against you, like you tend to do.

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The world knows we're the place so many have wanted to migrate to over the decades past.

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Well, yes, but that's for many different reasons, none of which are religiously-based, but freedom and tolerance based.You have yet to provide any explanation of why you believe freedom and tolerance are part of the United States' founding principles because of the Christian religion rather than mostly democratic, secular philosophy.

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I see no point in going on and on haggling over this.

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I'm sure you don't. Why let information and facts interfere with what you want to believe, right?

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The record speaks for itself. I've made my points and you yours and I've put about as much time into these national comparisons as I care to or have time to.

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Well, then, I suppose you have forfeited the debate.Perhaps, then, you might want to think hard before making claims that you cannot back up with sound data.[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 07-26-2003][This message has been edited by schrafinator, 07-26-2003]

Buz, The same is true for other religions. Why can't Mohammed slaughter thousands if Allah has given him sanction to? You can't have it both ways. Coming from a bloke who thinks God slaughtered everything on earth except the contents of a boat, Mohammeds few thousand pale into insignificance. Hypocrisy.Why shouldn't Moslems attempt a violent takover of the USA? They use EXACTLY the same rationale as you just did.Mark------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

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Your depiction of Mohammed's polygamy, enslavement of captives, slaughter of innocents, marriage to children and all the rest are very interesting, but the lives of Moses, Joshua, David and Solomon make Mohammed look like a minor league player.

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This led to:

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from buzsaw:
Better read up on these four ... I think you're mistaken

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Do you seriously mean this? I mean just looking through the book of Joshua makes me feel physically sick from the intense slaughter these people committed. In fact they wanted to rend & destroy their "enemies" so much that Joshua actually used God to make the sun stand still in the sky so he, Joshua, could have an extra day's worth of light to massacre with!Sorry for the huge tract, but:

Joshua 10: ​ [1] Now it came to pass, when Adoni-zedek king of Jerusalem had heard how Joshua had taken Ai, and had utterly destroyed it; ​ [6] And the LORD said unto Joshua, Be not afraid because of them: for to morrow about this time will I deliver them up all slain before Israel: thou shalt hough their horses, and burn their chariots with fire. ​ [10] And the LORD discomfited them before Israel, and slew them with a great slaughter at Gibeon, and chased them along the way that goeth up to Beth-horon, and smote them to Azekah, and unto Makkedah. ​ [11] And it came to pass, as they fled from before Israel, and were in the going down to Beth-horon, that the LORD cast down great stones from heaven upon them unto Azekah, and they died: they were more which died with hailstones than they whom the children of Israel slew with the sword. ​ [12] Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon. ​ [13] And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day. ​ [14] And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the LORD hearkened unto the voice of a man: for the LORD fought for Israel. ​ [20] And it came to pass, when Joshua and the children of Israel had made an end of slaying them with a very great slaughter, till they were consumed, that the rest which remained of them entered into fenced cities. ​ [28] And that day Joshua took Makkedah, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and the king thereof he utterly destroyed, them, and all the souls that were therein; he let none remain: and he did to the king of Makkedah as he did unto the king of Jericho. ​ [29] Then Joshua passed from Makkedah, and all Israel with him, unto Libnah, and fought against Libnah: ​ [30] And the LORD delivered it also, and the king thereof, into the hand of Israel; and he smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein; he let none remain in it; but did unto the king thereof as he did unto the king of Jericho. ​ [31] And Joshua passed from Libnah, and all Israel with him, unto Lachish, and encamped against it, and fought against it: ​ [32] And the LORD delivered Lachish into the hand of Israel, which took it on the second day, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein, according to all that he had done to Libnah. ​ [33] Then Horam king of Gezer came up to help Lachish; and Joshua smote him and his people, until he had left him none remaining. ​ [34] And from Lachish Joshua passed unto Eglon, and all Israel with him; and they encamped against it, and fought against it: ​ [35] And they took it on that day, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein he utterly destroyed that day, according to all that he had done to Lachish. ​ [36] And Joshua went up from Eglon, and all Israel with him, unto Hebron; and they fought against it: ​ [37] And they took it, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and the king thereof, and all the cities thereof, and all the souls that were therein; he left none remaining, according to all that he had done to Eglon; but destroyed it utterly, and all the souls that were therein. ​ [38] And Joshua returned, and all Israel with him, to Debir; and fought against it: ​ [39] And he took it, and the king thereof, and all the cities thereof; and they smote them with the edge of the sword, and utterly destroyed all the souls that were therein; he left none remaining: as he had done to Hebron, so he did to Debir, and to the king thereof; as he had done also to Libnah, and to her king. ​ [40] So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded. ​ [41] And Joshua smote them from Kadesh-barnea even unto Gaza, and all the country of Goshen, even unto Gibeon. ​ [42] And all these kings and their land did Joshua take at one time, because the LORD God of Israel fought for Israel.

And that comes from just Joshua, and doesn't detail everything he achieved in his lifetime. You might as well revere Genghis Khan...------------------

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All the boys think she's a spy

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What this means should be obvious. "That day," is to be understood in a spiritual sense. The Eglonites began to die on the day they chose to sin by resisting God's will for them (genocide). All the Amalekites will eventually die, thus proving that the Word of God is infallible. db------------------
Doesn't anyone graduate Sunday School?

If I ever saw a nice bit of quoting refuting buzz's blanket assertations, those were it. Great job Asgara !Just seeing those quotes brought tears to my eyes, and made me so happy that our fore-fathers were so wise as to see the problems inherent in state sponsored religions and religions in general. Even so, they ratified the bill-of-rights guaranteeing the freedom of ALL religions. Their rooting the creation of our country in rationalism and commen sense was one of the greatest gifts they gave this country. If only the leaders of our country now could embrace such sentiments.

aww shucks... I had gotten into the same discussion on a Yahoo News message board a few months ago, so I was prepared I'm upset that I can't find a particular link that I used there. It discussed the philosophical motifs in the various government buildings in DC. It had quotes from the actual architects describing the meaning behind the frescos and statuary and such.------------------
Asgara"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

Hi Asgara.

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Jefferson:

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"...this would be the best of worlds if there were no religion in it."

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This is not a quote from Jefferson. This is a quote from a letter John Adams wrote to Jefferson. It's a classic example of how secularists love to quote out of context to undermine the influence of the Bible in our heritage. Here's the context which bears out the truth:

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The problem with this quote is it is taken out of context. Here is the quote restored to its context:

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"Twenty times, in the course of my late Reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, "This would be the best of all possible Worlds, if there were no Religion in it." ! ! ! But in this exclamati[on] I should have been as fanatical as Bryant or Cleverly. Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell."

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Problematical Separationist QuotesSo you see, this was not Jefferson. It was Adams, and it was clearly not Adam's official position on religion as the context clearly states.If and when I get to it, there are other problems with your post, like we Christian Biblicist fundies, like the founders would oppose establishment of religion by government as was the case before the Protestant Reformation. All these men were fervent advocates of the free exercise of their own religions. Some of the statements in your post are not reflective of that, in that again they quote outa total context, quotes that alluded to religion establishment by government without including the free exercise side of their stories.

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Refusing to acknowledge the reprehensible behavior of these biblical heroes while bashing the prophet of Islam is more than dishonest. It is despicable, foolish and potentially dangerous.

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I've said it before adnausium and I'm going to remind you all again of necessity.1. I'm a very busy person and with my business, garden, yard, travel, church and all and time is very limited for amount of time here.2. I am one person on the Biblical side of this debate. You all are several for your side, all firing off things for me to respond to.3. So I have to do some picking and choosing as to what I feel important substantive to warrant a response. This may mean that you will get a response from all, part or none of your individual posts. You all do the same. You only respond to segments of my posts that you wish to address, some of you, all the while almost demanding response from me to all of yours.4. This is the free for all where we're all suppose to be more or less unregimented.5. With the above in mind, I'll do the best I can to respond, but I don't want this to obligate me to what each of you think I should be doing to satisfy you as individuals.I've said the above, db to say this. That I do not address everything you post does not make me dishonest, but for you to allege that it does, makes you unfair, insultive and meanspirited, imo.