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Author Topic:   Discovery or Ignorance: The Choice Is yours?
deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2893 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 211 of 402 (474276)
07-07-2008 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by mike the wiz
07-07-2008 9:25 AM


quote:
Creationism isn't ignorance, it's just an alternative explanation for those who genuinely believe that history happened according to how the Holy Bible said it did. While this doesn't exclude evolution, the consequences are obvious - that one must accept his bible as weaker and weaker, and more watered down, until guess what? You then question Christ himself - and how his miracles could have been naturally explained. Where does it end?
It ends with one losing their faith because they based their faith on a false premise - that in order to "hang unto" that faith one had to believe in a literal reading of the Bible. The problem is that a literal reading of the Bible is at odds with hard scientific evidence. The answer isn't to reject scientific fact, it is to understand that faith is not dependent of a literal reading of the Bible. It is a liberating revelation when one accepts that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by mike the wiz, posted 07-07-2008 9:25 AM mike the wiz has not replied

John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2996 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 212 of 402 (474277)
07-07-2008 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by subbie
07-06-2008 11:58 PM


Re: John You Have Convinced Me
In fact, I happen to believe that there probably are truths and absolutes in the natural world. What I said was that anything that science concludes is tentatively held. Science may well have stumbled upon accurate truths about the real world. My point is that we don't know, and will never know, because there's always the possibility that some new discovery will be made that will throw the whole works into the dustbin of history.
In the meantime we do quite well applying the truths and absolutes that have been proven by science to a high degree of accuracy.
Glad you are open to the fact that there possibly are some truths and absolutes in the natural world. What would it take to really convince you that there really are truths and absolutes in the natural world, and maybe in the spiritual world as well?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by subbie, posted 07-06-2008 11:58 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by subbie, posted 07-07-2008 12:59 PM John 10:10 has replied

deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2893 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 213 of 402 (474279)
07-07-2008 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by John 10:10
07-07-2008 12:12 PM


Re: Observations
quote:
Intelligent Design is simply understanding that all creatures, uncluding man, were created fully developed after their own kind, and did not evolve over millions/billions of years from a single spark of life.
For which, of course, there is no evidence except incredulity - which is not actually evidence. In fact, what evidence there is is against ID - particularly the molecular biological evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by John 10:10, posted 07-07-2008 12:12 PM John 10:10 has not replied

RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 214 of 402 (474280)
07-07-2008 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by John 10:10
07-07-2008 12:12 PM


Re: Observations
John writes:
Intelligent Design is simply understanding that all creatures, uncluding man, were created fully developed after their own kind, and did not evolve over millions/billions of years from a single spark of life.
But that explains nothing.
With your "understanding" could you tell me how the design was done? Can you clearly define a "kind" to me? Can you tell me what this "spark of life" is?
If not, then you understand nothing whatsoever.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by John 10:10, posted 07-07-2008 12:12 PM John 10:10 has replied

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John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2996 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 215 of 402 (474282)
07-07-2008 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by Rrhain
07-07-2008 3:45 AM


Again: Are you saying that god cannot create life that evolves. Why does evolution necessarily preclude the existence of god?
Have you considered the possibility that god does exist but not in the way you think?
Yes, I've considered the possibilities you describe above, but it goes against the revelation the God I know has given to us which says all creatures were created "after their own kind.".
When one rejects the revelation God has given to us, then anything goes, including the speculative evolutionary model that says God may have created life that evolves.
I believe created creatures can and do adapt to their environment over time, but they still remain relatively unchanged within their own species, and do not mutate or evolve into different species. The evolutionary model has never proven this, nor ever will.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 269 by Organicmachination, posted 07-08-2008 1:24 AM John 10:10 has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 216 of 402 (474283)
07-07-2008 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by John 10:10
07-07-2008 12:37 PM


Revelations
When I got saved, the only revelation that I firmly feel was real was the fact that God was alive, personal, and supportive of me. Nowhere did I ever get any revelations that said that the Bible was literally true as interpreted by the Pastor and churches of like persuasion.
To this day, I believe that God is real, alive, loving, and supportive. I believe that He is not concerned with literal scriptural interpretation so much as He is with the condition of our heart and soul.
Am I missing some anointing, here?

"All that we call human history--money, poverty, ambition, war, prostitution, classes, empires, slavery--[is] the long terrible story of man trying to find something other than God which will make him happy."--C.S.Lewis
* * * * * * * * * *
“The world has achieved brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants.”--General Omar Bradley
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"The free man owns himself. He can damage himself with either eating or drinking; he can ruin himself with gambling. If he does he is certainly a damn fool, and he might possibly be a damned soul; but if he may not, he is not a free man any more than a dog." -GK Chesterson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by John 10:10, posted 07-07-2008 12:37 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by John 10:10, posted 07-07-2008 1:30 PM Phat has replied

John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2996 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 217 of 402 (474284)
07-07-2008 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by Rrhain
07-07-2008 4:03 AM


Be specific.
OK, show me the evolutionary model "that has been proven" to a high degree of accuracy from start-to-finish that produces at least one fully developed creature species that then evolves into all the other fully developed creature species.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by Rrhain, posted 07-07-2008 4:03 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by Rrhain, posted 07-08-2008 2:46 AM John 10:10 has replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 218 of 402 (474286)
07-07-2008 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by John 10:10
07-07-2008 12:21 PM


Re: John You Have Convinced Me
quote:
Glad you are open to the fact that there possibly are some truths and absolutes in the natural world. What would it take to really convince you that there really are truths and absolutes in the natural world,
From a scientific point of view, nothing will ever positively convince me of that. I've made the point repeatedly that everything in science is tentative. If you don't understand that point by now, I can only assume that you are intellectually incapable of understanding it. However, I am about as certain as one can be within the context of science that there are regularities that can be found in nature that describe much of what we see in nature.
quote:
and maybe in the spiritual world as well?
As far as the spiritual world is concerned, you'd have to start with at least a scintilla of verifiable evidence that any such world exists before we can even begin thinking about absolute truths.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by John 10:10, posted 07-07-2008 12:21 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by John 10:10, posted 07-07-2008 1:35 PM subbie has replied
 Message 242 by ICANT, posted 07-07-2008 4:29 PM subbie has replied

John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2996 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 219 of 402 (474294)
07-07-2008 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by RickJB
07-07-2008 12:29 PM


Re: Observations
With your "understanding" could you tell me how the design was done?
Can you clearly define a "kind" to me?
Can you tell me what this With your "understanding" could you tell me how the design was done? Can you clearly define a "kind" to me? Can you tell me what this "spark of life" is?
is?
(1) The same way man creates and engineers anything man does. The difference is that man has to start with the ingredients God has already made.
God envisioned the creation of a universe, placing a sun with an earth 93 million miles from it, the perfect eliptical distance for the creation of seasons, not too hot or cold where He could create various life forms for His pleasure, with a moon revolving around the earth creating the tides, with the earth rotating every 24 hours creating night and day for the earth's inhabitants, with an atmosphere that protects us from the harmful sun's rays, providing wind, rain and oceans for watering this good earth.
(2) "Kind" simply means God created each creature species after their own species.
(3) The "spark of life" is a term used by some to explain how life either came to this earth to begin the evolutionary life process, or somehow self-started itself on the earth.
PS - I noticed you did'nt ask why?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by RickJB, posted 07-07-2008 12:29 PM RickJB has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by Rrhain, posted 07-08-2008 2:53 AM John 10:10 has replied

John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2996 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 220 of 402 (474296)
07-07-2008 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by Phat
07-07-2008 12:45 PM


Re: Revelations
To this day, I believe that God is real, alive, loving, and supportive. I believe that He is not concerned with literal scriptural interpretation so much as He is with the condition of our heart and soul.
Very true! But there are parts that should be interpreted literally when confirmed by other scriptures.
Blessings

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by Phat, posted 07-07-2008 12:45 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by Phat, posted 07-07-2008 1:34 PM John 10:10 has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 221 of 402 (474297)
07-07-2008 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by John 10:10
07-07-2008 1:30 PM


Re: Revelations
John 10:10 writes:
there are parts that should be interpreted literally when confirmed by other scriptures.
Why? Why should they?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by John 10:10, posted 07-07-2008 1:30 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
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John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2996 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 222 of 402 (474298)
07-07-2008 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by subbie
07-07-2008 12:59 PM


Re: John You Have Convinced Me
As far as the spiritual world is concerned, you'd have to start with at least a scintilla of verifiable evidence that any such world exists before we can even begin thinking about absolute truths.
I'm afraid if you are not convinced by the truth of Psalms 19:1, then whatever else I can say would be futile.
Edited by John 10:10, : added quote

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by subbie, posted 07-07-2008 12:59 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by subbie, posted 07-07-2008 1:37 PM John 10:10 has replied
 Message 229 by subbie, posted 07-07-2008 2:51 PM John 10:10 has replied
 Message 274 by Rrhain, posted 07-08-2008 2:56 AM John 10:10 has replied

Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2698 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 223 of 402 (474299)
07-07-2008 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by John 10:10
07-07-2008 12:05 PM


Re: Observations
John 10:10 writes:
Saying that the start-to-finish evolutionary model has been proven is easy.
Proving it has not nor ever will be done.
This is why the start-to-finish evolutionary model is not true science.
I have already answered this point, John: applying evolution to the real world yields natural history, in exactly the same manner that applying the 1930's nuclear fission studies to the real world yields the Manhattan Project.
You say: "You haven't proven it, nor can you ever."
I say: "We've done just as much as you have, and have done it in the same flippin' way: therefore, if evolution isn't 'true science,' neither is nuclear fission."
You respond, "You haven't proven it, nor can you ever."
Please also note that I did not say natural history is "proven" (natural history is apparently your "start-to-finish" evolutionary model), so you don't have a point even in that regard. You've completely ignored the issue that I've brought up (and that at least eight other people have also brought up), which is that you're discrediting only one of two theories that have the exact same type of background support and discovery process, while fully supporting and lauding the other.

Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by John 10:10, posted 07-07-2008 12:05 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
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subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 224 of 402 (474300)
07-07-2008 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by John 10:10
07-07-2008 1:35 PM


Re: John You Have Convinced Me
This is a science forum. Do you have any verifiable evidence of the accuracy of anything you have said in this thread?

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by John 10:10, posted 07-07-2008 1:35 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by John 10:10, posted 07-07-2008 3:22 PM subbie has replied

John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2996 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 225 of 402 (474302)
07-07-2008 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by Phat
07-07-2008 1:34 PM


Re: Revelations
John 10:10 writes:
there are parts that should be interpreted literally when confirmed by other scriptures.
Why? Why should they?
Because scripture is the best interpretation of scripture. If there is no other scripture to explain scripture, then we only know in part.
Blessings
Edited by John 10:10, : added "only" to last sentence

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by Phat, posted 07-07-2008 1:34 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
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