The Prophecy of the 70 weeks of Daniel

I'm afraid this is all very wrong.The Book of Daniel was written in the time of the Seleucid monarch Antiochus IV Epiphanes, and that is the time it is about. It doesn't have any verfiably successful predictions in it.Nobody knows what year Jesus entered Jerusalem. So even if Daniel did predict a date in 32 AD (which isn't the case) then you can't confirm an exact match.

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Interesting claim. Let's see your back up here. Surely you have some??

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Of course I do. It's the mainstream opinion of Biblical scholars based on the fact that Daniel is dodgy on the 6th Century BC, and inaccurate on events after ~162 BC. As well as other poitns such as the lack of any clear references to the "Biblical" Daniel in earlier texts.See Early Jewish Writings for examples, plus links to sites on various sides of the issue.

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Oh, so Jesus never came, there was no Rome, Greece, or Medo Persia. Quite the fantastic claims you make here. Funny joke.

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Daniel didn't predict Jesus. All the rest are not predictions because they happened BEFORE Daniel wrote. And Daniel's only "prediction" about Rome is that the Republic "would" (i.e. already had) interfere with Antiochus' attack on Egypt. The 4th Empire is Greek.I know that the 4th Empire is Greek because Daniel describes the Greek empire in a way that matches the 4th Empire. Nowhere does he describe the Roman Empire. More importantly the End Time vision of Daniel 8 (8:17, 8:19) is clearly about a Greek ruler (8:21-22)

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I personally wouldn't care to try. I look at a calendar, and see it was about 2000 years ago He came. I don't need to harp on the day, that bats it out of the ballpark.

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Yet you make that claim in the OP. And then you make it again in the next post. Whether you need to or not you DO make that claim. But you don't have any valid grounds to do so. (And we haven't gone into the fiddling of the start date or the fact that the article you linked to falsely claims that the Jewish year is 360 days to fiddle the calculation further. Try looking up a Jewish calendar if you don't believe me).And one more point about the seventy weeks. The final week doesn't fit. If the end of the 69th week is the crucifixion, the end of the 70th week must come 7 years later - somewhere around 40 AD. But none of the events of the 70th week happen then. How did Daniel get all that wrong ?

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your link..
"This dating is based upon two assumptions: first, that the authors lived at the later end of the historical surveys that characterize Daniel 7-12; and second, that prophecy is accurate only when it is given after the fact, whereas predictions about the future tend to run astray. Based upon these assumptions, "

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Those are wild leaps of faith, based on wishful lack of thinking.

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It's from ONE of the books quoted in the link. A book published by The Society of Biblical LiteratureTry reading the rest.

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--Because you assume it had to be that way, not good enough!!! Seeing the unwinnable position naysayers have, that is the only recourse -baseless denial.

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I don't notice you producing any real arguments.

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Well, no, not at all. There are many places in that book that refer to it, in some detail, as a matter of fact. The trademarks of Greece and other kingdoms are clearly given, in several places.

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So where are all these clear references to Rome ?

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Are you suggesting Rome went to 4 generals, by the way, and that some great king smacked down Medo Persia from that empire??

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Certainly not. YOU are saying that references to Greece are really references to Rome, not me.

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The order of kingdoms is clear, as in Dan 2, you might notice Rome was the 2 legs there. It was right under Greece, which was under Medo Persia, etc.

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So your argument that the 4th Empire is Rome - is to assert that the 4th Empire is Rome. With no evidence. No, there is nothing in Daniel 2 that clearly identifies the 4th Empire as Rome.

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Not sure where you think you are going here.

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I'm pointing out evidence, in Daniel that supports my views. You should try it.Since you don't understand lets look at the two points: When Daniel talks about the Greeks he describes them as being like the 4th Empire of Daniel 2. For instance the division of the Greek Empire is clearly mentioned (more than once); Daniel doesn;t talk about Rome in that way.So which is more likely - that the 4th Empire is one that Daniel describes as being divided, or an Empire that he hardly mentions ? Daniel 8 is about the End Times. The dominant Empire of that time is the Greek Empire. The ruler who will conquer Jerusalem, and end the Jewish sacrifices in those times is a Greek ruler, from one of the Kingdoms set up by Alexander's generals. There are no Romans in sight.So if the Greeks are still in charge in the End Times, Daniel allows no room for any later Empires. The 4th and last Empire before the Kingdom of God is Greek. Daniel says so - or rather Daniel says that his vision, as interpreted by the angel Gabriel says so.

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So, how far from the time of Jesus do you think you can put it, using whatever months you want??

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I don't want to use any months. Really you should use a 365 day year because the Jews (and pretty much everyone else who uses a Lunar calendar) vary the length of the year to keep their calenedar from drifting too far from the solar year. More often than every seven years, too.The point I think that Daniel meant to be the start date is 49 years before the decree of Cyrus (the first messiah of the prophecy - Isaiah 45:1). That puts it in 588 BC.
Using ordinary years, that puts the end of the 69th week at 98 BC.
If I wanted to use the 354 day Jewish year I can lose another 15 years, putting it at 113 BC. But I don't want to do that.

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No, because it is clear that the last week of Daniel is in the latter time.

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Which is around 160 BC according to Daniel.

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Notice that Israel never stopped their transgressions when Jesus came. To put an end to that, it was going to take some time. When the final week kicks in, and the clock resumes for the history of that country, that is the last seven years of man's rule on earth

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Daniel doesn't say anything about the clock stopping. He says that they have seventy weeks, and that's it. Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

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I don't care who thinks it is clever, or not. The gist of the claims were laid bare there, and you better support them, or lose them

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Picking and choosing quotes doesn't make your position more correct. Indeed it means that you are leaving out relevent information.

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I think that the amazing prophesies speak for themselves. You can't belittle that.

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You'd have to show that there are amazing prophecies first.

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The kingdom that followed Greece, the legs of iron, on the image.

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You are attempting to refute my argument that the 4th Kingdom is Greece by assuming that the 4th Kingdom is Rome. That just begs the question.

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Dan 7 :6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it. (Greece)

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7 “After these things, as I was watching in the night visions a fourth beast appeared - one dreadful, terrible, and very strong. It had two large rows of iron teeth. It devoured and crushed, and anything that was left it trampled with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that came before it, and it had ten horns.

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The one AFTER Greece was, --what?? Rome. Correct.

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Again you're just assuming your answer.Neither is a CLEAR reference to Rome.

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Also, when we get to the time of the end of the 69 set of seven years, that is when Messiah gets cut off. The kingdom that exited then has to be the one!

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Therefore it IS Greece ! (OK Daniel got the numbers of years wrong, but that one's about Antiochus).

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Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;

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That's the prophecy that you said hasn't happened yet. (Again, it's about Antiochus)

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It, unlike Persia, and Greece was not named, but it followed an order. After Greece was when it was to be. The time of Messiah was the time, and the rest is history!

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And the end is Greece. The point that you are missing is that it takes evidence to decide which kingdom is which. You aren't doing that, you're just assuming that you're right.

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It does have two legs. That is nice, since it was not divided by four generals like Greece was.

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It would do if Daniel had made a point of the division being into two.
But he doesn't. Nor does he mention an Empire beign divided into two. The only Empire he mentions as being divided - is the Greek Empire.

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In fact it spells out who the first ones are, so your confusuion is unjustifiable!

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But I'm not confused. I just don't agree with your opinions.

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No. All that is pointing out is that the last vile king will come from one of the divisions (four divisions) of the Greek empire!!! Nothing to do with the legs of Iron, or the bear, etc, which are quite clear if you look at the bible, and book, as a whole.

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Provided you ignore the point that the prophecy is explicitly stated to be a prophecy of the End Times.

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Ludicous, and ignorant of the rest of the book, that gives context.

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Unfortunately for you looking at the rest of the book and using that context is precisely what I am doing. In short your statement precisely describes your own situation.

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"It is clear from these texts that the 3 year period equaled 42 months or 1,260 days. Simple arithmetic yields a 360 day year. In other words, for purposes of this prophecy, a "year" is 360 calendar years long.

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Aside from the fact that you fail to even explain which texts supposedly show this, it is simply untrue.

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The essential claim is that a Jewish year is 360 days (12 months of 30 days) long, and the both the Jews and they understand it.

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And that claim is false. The Jewish year is typically 354 days long, but every 3 years or so an extra month is added to keep the calendar from getting too far out of sync with the solar year.

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You think the decree of the king who was named a century and a half before he was born, or some such is to be tossed aside? Well, why do you think that?

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Nothing that I have actually said suggests any such thing.

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No, only your weird attempts to mangle the years leave that fantasy as a possibility in your head. So, was the temple destroyed then!!!? Got you there! There are cross checks and balances, so cherry pickers can be kept in line!

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If you read in context you will see that the Temple is still operating in Daniel 12:27, until the sacrifice is banned (which Antiochus did do) and the Temple is profaned by the "abomination" (which Antiochus did do). So Daniel 12:26 cannot mean complete destruction, until the end (which didn't come at all). So I would say that the "destruction" of 12:26 refers to Antiochus' raid of the Temple as mentioned in 1 Maccabees 1:21-24

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Forth relative to what?

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The fourth Empire in the vision of the statue in Daniel 2

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To get an accurate understanding of the prophecies of Daniel you need to combine the info from the various accounts, beginning with the image of Daniel 2, the first kingdom being Babylon. The only named one is Babylon here.

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That is exacty what I've done. For instance I include the fact that the End Time Empire of Daniel 8 is clearly Greek.How do you deal with that if there are Empires after Greece ?On the other hand you assume that the vision of the statue must conform directly to the animals in Daniel 8. This is not necessarily the case because the choice of image demands a four-fold division. I would say that the break down between Media and Persia is likely, since the Silver Empire is "inferior to" the Gold and the Persian Empire was far greater than the Babylonian (as well as incorporating the Median and Babylonian Empires, Persia conquered Lydia and Egypt)
Others suggest that the split is between Alexander and his successors.Either way the overwhleming evidence form other prophecies is that the final Empire is Greek. Roma simply plays a minor part in one of them.Not to mention that in reality choosing Rome as the final Empire still makes Daniel's prophecies a failure. Since neither choice works for you, why fight so hard against the evidence ?

I'm going to cut out a lot to keep this short. Early Jewish Writings includes several quotes which you have not dealt with:e.g. (Taken from THhe Jerome Bible Commentary[)

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Let's see you predict the next four world powers, and the year till Messiah, and the countries that will attck a country that no longer existed, thousands of years in the future!!

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You really need to get out of this habit of assuming your conclusions.
You have yet to prove that Daniel predicted any of these.

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No, because it already put a certain creature that was represented as Greece, and another kingdom followed that one

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One that you ASSUME is Greece. There is nothing in the text that makes that identification.

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But it is clear that Greece got trampled, and another took it's place.

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No, it is not clear that the power that was trampled is Greece.

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Say what?? 69 times seven is 483 years. From the proclamation business, that puts it you know where!!

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You mean from your preferred date of the proclamation - preferred because it gives the date you want. Except that it gives a date that doesn't fit with Daniel's other prophecies.

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" Verse 26. And the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary
By the "prince" Titus, the son of Vespasian, is plainly intended; and "the people of that prince" are no other than the Romans, who, according to the prophecy, destroyed the sanctuary, hakkodesh, the holy place or temple, and, as a flood, swept away all, till the total destruction of that obstinate people finished the war."

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Except as I pointed out verse 27 has the Temple still in business. Which was NOT true after 70 AD. And if 70 AD is shoretly after the end of the 69th week, then the Messiah must get cut off at most a few years earlier, in the late 60s.

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The seventy weeks therefore here spoken of amount to four hundred and ninety years.

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Which is exactly what you don't beleive, because you keep trying to slip in extra years. You need to slip in nearly 40 between the Messiah being cut off nad the destruction and nearly 2000 (so far !) between that and the end of the 70th week.And that utterly destroys any claim of exact prediction. If you can slip extra time into the count whenever it is convenient than the time periods just represent minimums. Nothing more.

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If the ten kingdoms are old Roman empire related leftovers, Rome can.

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Since Daniel does not include "ten kingdoms" and there aren't "ten Rome empire related leftovers" (in reality OR the Book of Daniel) this is hardly a relevant point.

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Greece was to be beaten, as is clear. It is preposterous to pretend it was to continue on according to the bible.

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You know, I agree with that ! Greece was to be defeated by the Kingdom of God which would take over the world around 160 BC

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It is, placing geographically the last king. Not claiming Greece was still kicking.

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Obviously you haven't read Daniel 8. The four horns (8:8) are the successors of Alexander (8:22). The vile king is the "little horn" that grows FROM one of the four horns (8:9). This is a closer association than that of Media and Persia which are represented separate horns on one beast (8:3, 8:20). If the association there is purely geographical then all your ideas of Media-Persia being considered one are in deep trouble !On calendars

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Since the Jewish calendar had not changed from the earliest days, it is necessarily the calendar we should use in attempting to understand prophecy.

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we must conclude that God had no intention of fitting prophecy into 360 day years.

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I'm glad that you have come to see that I am right on this point.

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Sounds like any big possible differences are nixed here! No way you can take the time away from the time of Jesus! Be amazed.

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Yes, I am amazed. I am amazed to think that you have the idea that if I was right and your source was wrong it somehow hurts my position !I argued that your source (Chuck Colson) was WRONG to claim that the Jewish Year was 360 days, and therefore WRONG to claim that the nuimber of days between the proclamation and Jesus' entry ot Jerusalem exactly matched. Using a 365 day year, you need to add more than 6 years and 8 months, - and if you use Colson's start date, that pushed the year into 39 AD. Too late for him - and you.

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Now if you meant chap 9:27, that would be absurd! Because if you notice Messiah had already come and been killed, or cut off by then!!! That seems to place this bit in the last week of Daniel. They again will do the animal sacrifice thingie. That will of course be allowed to be clobbered.

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I do mean 9:27 and it is not ridiculous. In fact it fits. Antiochus forced the resignation of the High Priest Onaias III (2 Maccabees 4:7-10) in favour of Jason, who was also forced out of office by the Jews (2 Maccabees 5:5-7). Antiochus' attack is a consequence of Jason's defeat (2 Maccabees 5:11-16). Either Onaias or Jason could be the second messiah.You only get problems if you assume that Daniel meant Jesus. But it is that assumption that causes the problems in interpreting the text.
And that is how we know that Jesus is NOT the messiah of the 12 weeks.

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As I said, in order to get the whole picture right one must apply the info given in the entire sequence of visions.

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That's exactly what I do. And Daniel 8 shows that the last Empire is Greek.

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Go to Daniel 7:24 where you find that the 10 horns of the 4th beast, i.e the same beast (empire) which is destroyed by the little stone of Dan 2 are 10 kings within that 4th empire.

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So there are ten Kings within the Greek Empire. In fact it's about the Seleucid line and Antiochus' usurping the throne (which is why three horns are "pulled up by the roots" - Antiochus disposing of rivals with a better claim).

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These 10 kings are clearly future to emerge in the end times (modern times)...

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Then you reject Daniel 8, which clearly places the End Times long ago.

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So you like to use Greece as the fourth kingdom, to try to make God look silly. Hope you don't think it is in any way meaningful. The cross checks are abounding, the visions are not just in one place, to be able to be abused by folks like you. Sorry.

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I'm not trying to make God look silly. And if I was I couldn't do better than you. I mean I point out that an article that you cited incorrectly claims that the Jewish year is 360 days long to try to fiddle the figures. And you then quote several paragraphs agreeing with me that the years CAN'T be meant to be 360 daysWhat it really going on is that there are a lot of people who very badly want Daniel to be a valid prophecy of the end of the world. And they make up all sorts of rubbish to try and avoid the fact that that isn't true. And what they say doesn't stand up to examination. Rome is long gone. It cannot be the last Empire.

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The kingdoms are simply not a burning issue. Denial does not give your claims credence. One kingdom followed the other. Greece was not the final one, and is not worthy of wasting time pretending it is some sort of player.

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Be honest.

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Here's the honest truth. Greece is the 4th Empire. Daniel is about Antichius Epiphanes and his actions as described in Maccabees (esp. 2 Maccabees). It is not about Rome, or the present time at all.If I said otherwise I'd be lying.

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The legs, and toes cannot be welded into being the kingdom
that came before them. That is crystal clear.

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And that's got nothing to do with what I'm saying. Can you stop begging the question.

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No more than Messiah was cut off in Greece!

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Of course neither of the possible messiah's I mentioned were cut off "in" Greece. THe important events happened right there in Jerusalem.

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Nor the temple was destroyed by Greece!

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It was, however raided and looted - doubtless with significant damage. And as I have pointed out, Daniel has the Temple in action after the "destruction".Rome, on the other hand, didn't destroy the Temple in the timescale you want. By your count the 70 weeks were up then. Nor did they errect the "abomination that causes desolation". Antiochus did that.

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Nor the prince that came was from Greece!

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Depends on how you want to define "comes from Greece". The Seleucid, Antiochus IV, is that prince.

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Nor is present Europe, the remnants of the Roman empire, one day to be the ten toes, coming from Greece!!!

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Nor has that got anything to do with Daniel's prophecy. The only thing that is to follow the 4th Empire is the Kingdom of God.And present day Europe doesn't even come from Rome (it concludes significant territories that were never Roman, excludes important territories that were Roman, and lets not forget those people living in former Roman territories whose ancestors came from outside the Empire).

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Greece was in the one place I think you

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mentioned for a reason. If you miss that, too bad, the

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rest of the biik, and bible give uncontortable context!!

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Certainly that context is uncomfortable for you. Because you don't pa any attention to it.

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The reason Greece was mentioned was to give a geographical

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location for the important devil man king of the latter

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days.

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No it wasn't. And if you'd read it you would know that. The king referred to is to rise in the "latter part..." of the time of the four Hellenistic kingdoms that rose from Alexander's Empire. Those have come and gone. This prophecy cannot be fulfilled now or in our future, as you want to believe. The Bible contradicts you again.

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Harping of that as if it was anything more is impossible,

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with any reasoned and balanced use of the rest of the

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bible!! Nice try.

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Of course it's possible. The Bible is a collection of works, and despite the best efforts of the editors who selected the manuscripts it is not fully consistent. There's simply no requirement for Daniel to agree with other "End Time" prophecies - or anything wrong in pointing out that it does not.

I believe it to be:
Babylon
Media
Persia
GreeceThe other possibility I have seen suggested is:
Babylon
Media-Persia
Macedonia
Successor StatesAs I point out the context provided by the other prophecies clearly identifies the 4th Empire as Greek. That is the only Empire mentioned in the text as being divided.

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See Daniel 5:28. Daniel to King Belshazzar of Babylon: "....thy kingdom is divided and given to the Medes and the Persians."

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Hardly conclusive.

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I remember in high school way back in the 1940s it was common knowledge that the Medo-Persian world class empire was one shared empire.

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And that "common knowledge" was wrong. The Persians were subjects of the Medes, rebelled and took over their Empire. [quote] Macedonia? Alexander the Great saved Macedonia from falling. After Alexander's death, Macedonia survived for a spell, but never as a world class dominating empire.
[/qupte]The Macedonian empire referred to IS Alexander's Empire. You might think that he only "saved Macedonia from falling", but even the author of the Book of Daniel knew that Alexander created a great Empire, that was broken up on his death.

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Paul, your argument would obviously be considered bogus to any Daniel scholar who can read

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Provided you exclude the mainstream scholars who actually produce the lists.And I'll note that you have yet to actually address my arguments.

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Daniel's 3rd kingdom is clearly the Greek empire and the only world class empire to follow was the Roman so Daniel's un-named 4th empire has to be Rome, not Greece.

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If that was true then you'd be dealing with my arguments. And you're not doing that.The evidence form Daniel clearly indicates that the 4th Empire is Greek and that the End TImes are the times of Antiochus Epiphanes. Daniel 8 is a dead give away. Even without that the fact that Daniel describes the Greeks - and no-one else - in terms which match the 4th Empire would be a very strong point.Are you going to deal with these ?

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Historians have always considered Alexander's empire to be the Greek empire. Macedonia was an entity of the Greek empire.

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That isn't true. ALexander was King of Macedonia. That was his power base. Alexander's Empire has always been considered Macedonian for that obvious reason.And of course you're missing the point that you only credited Alexander with "saving Macedonia" and not with building the great empire that he did.

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Paul, this is your MO, to accuse your counterparts of failing to respond. No matter what I say, you've always resorted to that bogus claim when you can't deliver. You do not debate in good faith.

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Debating in good faith requires you to address my points. It does not require me to pretend that you have addressed them when you have not. Doing so would not be debating at all.I know what this is about. Your habit of asserting that the Flood would mess up all dating measures and then running away when asked to support it. I know that you don't like this fact being pointed out. But it's your fault for doing it. Just as it's your fault for bringing up the issue.

I note that somehow you managed to post this 3 times.

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If the order and content of the kingdom aspect of the prophesy has nothing to do with whatever you are sayimng, who cares?? Focus.

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I am simply pointing out that I do not claim that the legs and toes belong to the Kingdom before them. You are meant to focus on the arguments I do make, not on the arguments you would like me to make.

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Must have missed that bit. Your thing here is to try to point to some other so called messiahs, I see. Pathetic.

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No, I'm pointing out real messiahs. Who fit Daniel's prophecy better than Jesus (whose claim to be a messiah is pretty dubious).

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Look, let's be clear here. Do you believe in God, and the bible or not?? I am getting a little tired of pussyfooting around with you. If you do, tell us if you think the prophesy is true and valid, and how you supposedly think it was fulfilled.

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What I believe about God and the Bible shouldn't matter.However since the Kingdom of God did not appear and sweep away the Hellenistic kingdoms, it is quite clear that the prophecy did fail. Indeed your own arguments, inventing tenuous connections between the Roman Empire and Kingdoms created by people who were never under Roman rule, in territory that Rome never controlled. Or inventing huge gaps or trying to insert huge temporal gaps in the middle of sentences - where they make no sense.Your own arguments prove that the prophecy failed.

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So you deny the 70 AD historical date. OK. That will requite proof. Got any??

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I don't deny that the Romans destroyed the Temple (and much of Jerusalem) in 70 AD. I do deny that that has anything to do with Daniel's prophecy. Even your interpretation requires inventing gaps in the 70 weeks to try and force the prophecy to fit events.

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Titus came from Greece by any standard?? Tell us about it.

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No, that's just what you wanted me to say. The prince of the prophecy was Antichus IV Epiphanes, not Titus. Antiochus could be said to be Greek, although his Kingdom didn't include Greece and his capital was near modern Baghdad.

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Of course it does. There is a long period of time between the last week, and the 69th.

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Where does Daniel say that ? WHere does he say hat there are ANY gaps in the 69 weeks ?
You do realise that if you can insert gaps into the 70 weeks just because it happens to be convenient the prophecy becomes meaningless ? That you're giving IamJoseph license to say - if he should want to - that the 69 weeks have not even ended now. All he has to do is to insert gaps the way you do.

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The toes, by the way, I suppose you are considering part of the fourth kingdom? I read it as part of the same stuff as the fourth, but part different. Modern Europe, and the remnants of the Roman empire are really not what they used to be.

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They're less Roman than Rome was Greek ! If Daniel really thought like that there'd be no need for talking about different Kingdoms at all. (So why not include the British Empire ? Or the Mongols ? Or the Islamic Empire ?)

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Well, that really doesn't matter, because sometimes in a chapter, we launch into the future, or some such. So that is fine tuning, not something to be done on a pagan forum.

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It's not in the middle of a chapter. Or a paragraph - it's in the middle of a sentence.
The key sentence is verse 23: So where are you going to put the jump so that the King can be born 2000 years after "the latter period of their rule? "

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No one could guess all the kingdoms of the earth, when Jesus would come, and be killed, and the sanctuary destroyed, etc etc etc.

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And Daniel was wrong about the kingdoms, never mentioned Jesus and failed to predict the destruction you think he meant...

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OK, let's slow down, you are claiming a Messiah came after seventy weeks? And the temple was destroyed??
Who was it, santa clause?? Maybe tiberius bogusendi? Or a Greek, perhaps? Maybe alexander nobodyatallanyoneeverheardofski??

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If you'd been paying attention you'd know that I've already told you.The first messiah (Cyrus) comes after the SEVEN weeks. This is the reading in the Masoretic text.The second could the High Priest, Onias III or his successor Jason. Jason was installed (through Antiochus' influence) in 175 BC replaced in 172 and driven off in 169 BC. In 167 BC Antiochus attacked Jerusalem in reaction to Jasons's defeat. Jason fits the dates better.Antichus stormed the walls as Daniel said and entered the Temple, looting it (the destruction referred to by Daniel). We know that the Temple wasn't literally destroyed since it goes on operating - until it is stopped and pagan worship is instituted in the Temple itself.Following this he banned sacrifice and set up a pagan altar in the Temple ("The Abomination"). The Romans did neither.

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It cannot be Greece.

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The author of Daniel clearly disagrees. YOu have yet to refute the clear testimony of Daniel 8.

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What can happen is that out of one of the four divisions of former Greece, eventually, the evil last king can come.

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It had to happen while the Hellenistic Kingdoms still exist. Daniel 8:23 says so. And it didn't.

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You simply can not wave away the four kindoms, trying to get stuck in Greece, so you can reject the Messiah that came, and was cut off, but not for Himself.

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And I don't. At least I have actual messiahs. Who fit the dates and text better.

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Hard to believe anyone could actually believe that,

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I know that a lot of fundamentalists have a problem believing that the Bible could actually mean what it says. I mean you reject the seventy weeks. You reject Daniel 8's clear indication that the "vile King" "will" come in the time of the Hellenistic Kingdom
You reject even your own idea that the last Empire is Rome in favour of adding in a bunch of non-Roman states.

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You better get to work, and clean up tens of thousands of links, and books! Call it tomato if you like, it is commonly associated with Greece.

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I guess you need to brush up on your reading skills. These statements come before the part you choose to quote. Did you not manage to read them ?I wonder what other sources say. What about WikipediaThis agrees. How about Britannica ? Nope.Looks like they all agree with me. Want to explain how that happened ?Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.