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Author Topic:   The infinite space of the Universe
Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 151 of 380 (468569)
05-30-2008 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by cavediver
05-30-2008 10:09 AM


Re: Symmetry
It's Robert P. Crease, Professor of Philosophy, Stoney Brook university and Charles C. Mann a very good general science writer.
If you've ever read Pais' "Inward Bound" it is quite similar, but less technical.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by cavediver, posted 05-30-2008 10:09 AM cavediver has not replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 152 of 380 (468648)
05-30-2008 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by Libmr2bs
05-29-2008 10:36 PM


Re: Big Bang
What is the life span of a black hole - I have encountered contradicting answers here? Also, black holes are post-uni effects, and appear compressed graveyards of mass.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Libmr2bs, posted 05-29-2008 10:36 PM Libmr2bs has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Libmr2bs, posted 05-31-2008 11:37 PM IamJoseph has replied

Libmr2bs
Member (Idle past 5726 days)
Posts: 45
Joined: 05-15-2008


Message 153 of 380 (468725)
05-31-2008 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by IamJoseph
05-30-2008 9:23 PM


Re: Big Bang
What is being considered is that the existence of a black hole may well depend on the exchange of energies from the collisions of objects. What will happen when the collisions end? What is being considered is that as a black hole cools toward absolute zero gravitational forces weaken, radiant energies start escaping, and matter starts to reformulate into neutrons which decay into protons and electrons. If reformation can accelerate quickly enough then an explosion will occur which will scatter particles across a new galaxy. This produces a cyclical existence of galaxies. In essence each galaxy becomes a closed system where matter and energies are converted back and forth.
I find this intriguing as there is a preponderance of people who accept that the universe is expanding. A red shift from distant galaxies can be caused by our galaxy shrinking. Further, measuring the red shift of light for other galaxies means that we are measuring the shift from the stars nearest us. If these stars are accelerating toward the center of their galaxies, the acceleration of these stars is in an direction away from us which creates a red shift. This begs the question of an expanding universe as we are measuring the shift from stars and not galaxies.
Hope I haven't confused you.
Edited by Libmr2bs, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3425 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 154 of 380 (468728)
06-01-2008 1:02 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by cavediver
05-20-2008 4:28 AM


Re: Is it infinite?
Take a beach ball, and look at a small patch to see how curved it is. Now blow the ball up to the size of the Milky Way. How curved does your small patch look now? Say you can look as far as 100 miles away across the surface - can you determine whether this surface is flat or part of a ball?
Thank you for this analogy, cavediver. This helps me to picture inflation in a much better way than before (although the analogy should be obvious from how we observe our own respective positions on our own planet).

"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London
"Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea

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Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3425 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 155 of 380 (468731)
06-01-2008 1:40 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Marcosll
05-21-2008 7:45 AM


Re: Infinite
Another thing that's difficult to comprehend is the difference between "empty space" and "nothingness".
It is difficult to comprehend. That is because we are used to thinking of things in terms of their physical or temporal space. That is why it is so hard for us to wrap our brains around the concept of "nothing" existing "before" the Big Bang (if that is the case...) or "nothing" existing "outside" of our universe.
To drift for a second, I remember reading The Neverending Story as a child and the concept of "The Nothing" had me reeling. The movie, while entertaining, did this concept no justice, except, possibly by the rock-eater's description of the lake that wasn't a hole or an empty space because "that would be something." The Nothing wasn't pure darkness, it wasn't pure light, it wasn't a hole where space had been or a hole where future space could go, it wasn't anything describable at all. It was nothing.
"Empty space" would still be something. Nothing, however, is nothing.

"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London
"Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea

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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 156 of 380 (468733)
06-01-2008 1:55 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by Libmr2bs
05-31-2008 11:37 PM


Re: Big Bang
quote:
I find this intriguing as there is a preponderance of people who accept that the universe is expanding. A red shift from distant galaxies can be caused by our galaxy shrinking.
That is a reasonable and intelligent counter. But are you also saying, based on the possibility you raise, that the universe is NOT expanding?
I cannot see space as nothingness. Here, space is a THING - it has attributes, such as a recipient factor of mass, namely in its containment facility. Space is a bed, akin to a matrix. Space's reciprocal attributes are seen in its descretionary factors concerning sound and light; it is denser than sound but not of light - which negates the nothingness premise.

This message is a reply to:
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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 157 of 380 (468737)
06-01-2008 2:42 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by Jaderis
06-01-2008 1:40 AM


Re: Infinite
quote:
That is because we are used to thinking of things in terms of their physical or temporal space.
Nothingness is perhaps the ultimate affront for the human mind, science and all other avenues of the imagination. Since this issue is transcendent of science, I can say the closest coherence of this subject may yet be from a faculty called 'Theoretical Kabalah', which is varied from the issue of today's Practical Kabalah, which is more occult oriented with beads, color threads and Madona.
The theoretical science of Kabalah, and this is a pre-science faculty, is to provide metaphors and analogies to comprehend the unknowable, which is a reversal system of today's science, which uses academic equations to explain physical phenomena.
The ancient kabalists backtracked the issue of nothingness, and asked the question, what was the first entity, aside from the creator? One may conclude this answer was light, as this is first mentioned in genesis. But they went further, and concluded the first entity was an act [action/will/thought]. The answer here was, the first act was that of GIVING/IMPARTING. This does make sense, as nothing can happen without this factor. Science may call this an exchange or some other term. The next, obvious question has to be: giving/imparting to whom and giving what? This is where the analogy comes to the rescue, because none can imagine it, and here the analogy of a 'vessel' is used. IOW, the recipient was a vessel, created from a 'contraction', which becomes a reciever/container of that which was given. This is the very first act: Giver and Recipient. this also alligns with man being made in the image of the creator, which applies to everything, even with science, when everything is backtracked.
The analogy of light [or a ray of light], is then used to signify that which was given, and a program [will/thought/seed] was embedded in that ray of light. This alligns with genesis, namely light being primodial, and the act of continuation being via the seed which contains a program [DNA]. Now, we have a second phase, namely a giver, a reciever and a product.
Phase three is that the attributes of the giver was imparted and now contained in the vessel, namely, the vessel acquired the attribute of 'giving'. The vessel also started to 'give' - for the first instant. This can be seen akin to the Big Bang - the vessel burst forth, subsequent to its newly acquired attribute of giving, with a program which anticipated all what became the universe.
There is a brilliant transit stage between the vessel 'giving' and a burst/explosion factor also described. Items such as wisdom, understanding and knowledge - no less enigmatic than nothingness, are catered to. These items did not just come of their own, but were resultant from a program in the original, primal ray of light. Ten realms or emanations, aka Sefirot, are listed here. The first three realms are Wisdom, Understanding and Knowledge. Wisdom contains the attributes of positive/male/past inclinations; Understanding is female and future inclined [the reason a female is given the task of life and its future security thoughts]; the sum of wisdom + undertdnaing = knowledge. The female can bypass wisdom and go directly to knowledge - the reason a woman need not indulge in too much philosophy or prayers, because she has this inherent understanding in a greater decree than the male [the reason even a great prophet like Abraham was told, 'WHATEVER SARAH TELLS YOU TO DO - DO IT']. At this stage, no physicality, life, male, female as we know it - existed yet; these are analogies listed with what we can percieve only via such analogies.
So when we talk of nothingness, in reality, there is much happening in that realm. This fully alligns with the premise, a complexity has to have a greater complexity as its foundation.
Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Jaderis, posted 06-01-2008 1:40 AM Jaderis has not replied

Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3425 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 158 of 380 (468738)
06-01-2008 2:43 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by IamJoseph
05-25-2008 11:40 PM


Re: SPACE IS NOT INFINITE NOR WAS IT ALWAYS PRESENT.
Time cannot be a concept of man. A 9 month pregnancy and the earth's rotation periods, was not a concept but a predating construct.
Precisely. Time existed before we decided to put physical numbers which we could understand to stand in as symbols for the concepts which demonstrate time.
Just like the laws of physics, which existed before we came up with formulas to describe them.
Time is not an invention of man, nor are the laws of physics which describe the other 3 dimensions of our universe. The words and the formulas are, rather, descriptions of what we know of these things.
The concept of the 9-month pregnancy is based on how we, as humans, describe time. If we did not have this description of months, we would not conceive of a pregnancy as being 9 months. Just like all of the other physical laws existed before we defined them.
If things were different, they would be different.
What's your point?

"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London
"Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by IamJoseph, posted 05-25-2008 11:40 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 159 of 380 (468739)
06-01-2008 2:53 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by Jaderis
06-01-2008 2:43 AM


Re: SPACE IS NOT INFINITE NOR WAS IT ALWAYS PRESENT.
My point is that time is an independent entity, and not dependent upon man's measures. If we measured according to our own inventions, it may work to some basic level, but will eventually become contradicted. The correct measurement of time, applicable to our own known unuverse limits, is best seen in the solar/lunar/earthly alligned measurements, altghough earlier, sand clocks and sun shadow gadgets sufficed for a limited time.
IOW, time is an entity like space, energy, etc.
Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Jaderis, posted 06-01-2008 2:43 AM Jaderis has not replied

Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3425 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 160 of 380 (468742)
06-01-2008 3:29 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by IamJoseph
05-26-2008 8:24 PM


Re: Time's existence is immaterial
Correct, and a good reasoning to dismiss space as an entity when it is non-existent; I see this as a back-door to bring in an infinite aspect to the finite universe. My point here is, that nothingness is outside of our mind's fathoming, and none should resort to it. Nothingness represents a realm where none of the post universe products exist, and there is no way we can identify with it - there is no space, matter or vision, so there is nothing to connect to.
I think you're catching on. There is nothing to connect to, because there is nothing there.
This is not a "back-door" to creating an infinite universe from a finite one or vice versa because what the maths produce is what describes our universe, nothing more. There is no solid theory surrounding what might be beyond what we know right now (although there is speculation). There is nothing. The singularity describes a point where our math breaks down. Nothing is known beyond that. Similarly, there is no "out there" beyond our universe because that question makes no sense. If it were known, then it would be a part of the universe (or of a multiverse if that was known).
Just because we cannot fathom what is out there (if anything) does not make any idea "god." Nor does it make any a posteriori ideas based on the OT "true" no matter how you want to twist the words of Genesis to make it try to fit what you know of physics and cosmology.

"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London
"Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by IamJoseph, posted 05-26-2008 8:24 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 161 of 380 (468745)
06-01-2008 4:54 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by Jaderis
06-01-2008 3:29 AM


Re: Time's existence is immaterial
quote:
Just because we cannot fathom what is out there (if anything) does not make any idea "god."
Actually, it does. Maybe not of any theological God, but surely, by absence and logic factors, a Creator scenario has no alternative. One cannot reject on the basis of no proof here, because a proof itself becomes a negating factor, as we see from the nothingness example.
Its like finding a car on Jupiter and concluding there must be a car maker.
Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by onifre, posted 06-01-2008 12:13 PM IamJoseph has replied
 Message 163 by lyx2no, posted 06-01-2008 1:53 PM IamJoseph has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 162 of 380 (468762)
06-01-2008 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by IamJoseph
06-01-2008 4:54 AM


Re: Time's existence is immaterial
Maybe not of any theological God, but surely, by absence and logic factors, a Creator scenario
How would you know about a 'Creator' if not for theology? You are looking for a devine Creator, thats based off of theolgical ideals and you wouldn't be thinking as such had it not been for religion. You would be in a Physics class trying to figure it out mathematically. Your search for the Creator is motivated by your belief and not based off of evidence.
Its like finding a car on Jupiter and concluding there must be a car maker.
Cars don't reproduce so its NOT like that at all. If I found a car, yes, i'd think someone made it but, if I found plant, or a bug, or algae on Jupiter I would NOT conclude there must be a plant maker, or a bug maker, or an algae maker...I would conclude that it went through a natural process of evolution and try to find out how.
The same goes for a naturally fuctioning Universe that reproduces and is self sustaining. I would not conclude there was a Universe maker, thats the part thats completely illogical. Thats just a simple answer given to possibly the biggest question humanity has, your saying you are satisfied with 'Goddidit'? Yet you yourself said theres no proof for any theological Gods, so basically we are left with just the concept of a thing that just creates Universes. How is this good?

All great truths begin as blasphemies

This message is a reply to:
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lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4716 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 163 of 380 (468774)
06-01-2008 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by IamJoseph
06-01-2008 4:54 AM


Re: Time's existence is immaterial
Its like finding a car on Jupiter and concluding there must be a car maker.
Yes, a car on Jupiter is much more convincing then a watch on the moor. Please, Paley has been done to death.

Kindly
A mind changed against its will is of the same opinion still.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by IamJoseph, posted 06-01-2008 4:54 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by IamJoseph, posted 06-01-2008 7:38 PM lyx2no has replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 164 of 380 (468825)
06-01-2008 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by onifre
06-01-2008 12:13 PM


Re: Time's existence is immaterial
quote:
The same goes for a naturally fuctioning Universe that reproduces and is self sustaining.
Equally, there is no such thing as nature or naturally functioning universe - this is a belief, and not represented in any logical contruct of science. In fact, the universal structures expose a deep and complex process, and all its structures are intergrated.
One can address a lock on Jupiter as a natural, random occurence, but not so if an exactly fitting key to that lock is found - this affirms an intergration, and an intergration negates a natural [random] action.
quote:
yes, i'd think someone made it but, if I found plant, or a bug, or algae on Jupiter I would NOT conclude there must be a plant maker, or a bug maker, or an algae maker...I would conclude that it went through a natural process of evolution and try to find out how.
That conclusion is wrong - logically and scientifically. If a car has a maker, than any other complex construct must be equally validated - unless anti-thetical proof is put forward. Evolution is also not a natural [?] process - it shows a complex engineering every instant, inherent of intergration, cross-reciprocity and its conclusion being anticipatedn in its processes: there is nothing 'natural' about it, and if this term is applied, it can only be applied for an evolution designers and maker.
Evolution is a process after the fact of already occuring products in place, which were not resultant from that process; the same applies to 'space'. One cannot point to a car manual and conclude it as a natural process; the same applies to a pineapple. If one archives the events and processes of both a car and a pineapple, the latter would list in the trillions of actions, all in intergration, directed to a specific conclusion and no other: there is nothing 'natural' here. We use the term nature to keep science as science, and not get bogged down by theologies. And science relates to the B to Z limits only - we have no science input of originals. Evolution is a car manual.
Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.
Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 165 of 380 (468828)
06-01-2008 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by lyx2no
06-01-2008 1:53 PM


Re: Time's existence is immaterial
Is space resultant from 'nature' or is nature resultant from space? Do sub-atomic particles have a sort of inherent mind where to go and what to do, or do the universal products result from jitterbugging particles over infinite periods?
I see the proof of that premise being vested in why such earthly, complex life is not seen anywhere else in the known universe. Are there different variations of particles whose traits differ from earth, and did all of the earthly particles become swept to just this sector of our solar systems by some form of random radiation wnds? In science, elements have constant and determinable traits and values - they do not function by and of theselves to produce a product, but require comprehensive intergration and reciprocity impacts. What's natural about it?

This message is a reply to:
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