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Author Topic:   Absence of Evidence..............
mick
Member (Idle past 5016 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 49 of 138 (467928)
05-25-2008 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Straggler
05-22-2008 11:14 AM


Straggler writes:
Should not the default position, i.e. the position in the absence of any evidence always be disbelief rather than belief?
You criticize (some) religious people for the assumption that in the absence of any evidence regarding, for example, the existence of a soul, we should adopt a "flat prior" - all the competing hypotheses have equal probability of being correct.
There is actually a strong tradition in Bayesian inference of adopting a flat prior in some cases, and it is often used in evolutionary analysis! (each possible phylogenetic tree may be considered equally likely a priori, and we simply revise the prior probabilities assigned to each tree in the light of the molecules and the morphological characteristics of each taxon). So I must say that the religious people who propose a "flat prior" are not completely isolated from the scientific tradition in this regard.
The big difference lies in the fact that in science a flat prior is proposed only so that it can be modified under analysis of empirical evidence. If religious people propose a flat prior of the form "its 50/50 that the soul exists or doesn't exist" they should be aware that this has no bearing on the actual probability of the soul's existence - the prior probabilities are completely uninformative since we are unable to revise them in the light of empirical data. They are literally plucked from the air and represent nothing more than our ignorance. Since the number of possible religious beliefs is unbounded, the prior probability of any specific belief tends toward zero. Furthermore there is no consensus on how these priors ought to be chosen. Choosing a flat prior may be convenient but it is essentially a speculation, the choice cannot be justified with respect to alternative priors.
If the priors cannot be revised, then there is no point in having them. This is the sense in which religious views are "not even hypotheses". Religious people can not call upon Bayesian inference and the presumption of a flat prior if they at the same time claim that no empirical evidence can be brought to bear on the question.
While there is an intuitive appeal to the notion that we should treat competing unfalsified claims as having equal likelihood, I agree with you that an attitude of scepticism is usually the most rigorous and coherent one. This is after all why there exists the concept of the null hypothesis - the null hypothesis is often simply that some postulated pattern in the world is actually the result of a random process. For example if we want to test the hypothesis that Germans are taller than the French, we would calculate how likely the empirical data regarding German height is to result from a null distribution in which the heights of French and German people are drawn from a single random probability distribution. So the null hypothesis is simply "there is no intersting pattern here that needs to be explained" and somebody who disagrees must demonstrate it.
The null hypothesis in questions of religion is also "there is no interesting pattern here that needs to be explained". If religious people are arguing that no empirical evidence can be brought to bear upon some religious question, then they are essentially agreeing with the null hypothesis. There is no interesting empirical pattern to be explained with respect to the existence of the soul or Vishnu. If religious people really do make such arguments, then it is gratifying that they agree with the atheists! We can happily proceed to make ethical judgements based on the null hypothesis that there is no soul nor Vishnu.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Straggler, posted 05-22-2008 11:14 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Straggler, posted 05-25-2008 6:15 PM mick has not replied

  
mick
Member (Idle past 5016 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 50 of 138 (467929)
05-25-2008 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Grizz
05-25-2008 4:41 PM


Re: Practical Question
grizz writes:
Scientific empiricism(sometimes referred to as Scientism) states that the empirical methods of science are the only valid means of arriving at facts, inferences, or conclusions about the nature of the world. The irony is that neither the rejection of empiricism nor its acceptance can be established by empirical inquiry and is grounded in reason rather than measurement.
I agree with you in part, though I would argue that empiricism itself has resulted in empirical evidence that empiricism is the best way of obtaining truth. This empirical evidence is found in the fact that our technology works. The fact that our technology works is empirical evidence that empiricism has accomplished a good (perhaps not true, but good) understanding of the physical world.
There is little empirical evidence that religion has led to a good understanding of the world in which we live, since its technologies (for example prayer) do not seem to work very well in solving the problems facing us.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Grizz, posted 05-25-2008 4:41 PM Grizz has not replied

  
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