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Author Topic:   The Big Bang and Absolute Zero
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 46 of 56 (463882)
04-21-2008 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by there is no evo proof
04-21-2008 5:06 PM


The Way Things Work
Welcome to EvC, TiNEP (do you mind if I call you that?)
You can hone your writing and debating skills here, have a bit of fun and, if you are willing, even learn stuff.
But we do ask that you co-operate by helping keep things organized.
We limit each thread to about 300 posts so we try to keep the topic in each one pretty tightly focussed. That is why you have been asked to pay attention to the topic.
It also helps those who only want to read about certain things and ignore others. Hopefully the title of the topic will give them a clue about whether they want to read it or not.
(And a small point. If is nice if you pick descriptive post titles as well.)
Please pay particular attention to the need for evidence and careful chains of reasoning in the "science side" of the house. Failure to stick to that can result in suspensions.
Your post 44 is also an example of the kind of thing we discourage. Do not take shots at the other posters. Do not waste post with one-liners that have little or no content.
Again, welcome aboard.
Edited by AdminNosy, : spelling again

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by there is no evo proof, posted 04-21-2008 5:06 PM there is no evo proof has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 13014
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 47 of 56 (463883)
04-21-2008 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by there is no evo proof
04-21-2008 4:49 PM


Hi, 'No Proof'.
I was hoping that a few hints would be sufficient, but apparently not, so I'm going to step in as moderator. EvC Forum has Forum Guidelines, you're going to have to follow them. About this:
im not talking about religion im stating that scientifically there has to be a God.
The Forum Guidelines state:
  1. Please stay on topic for a thread. Open a new thread for new topics.
If you'd like to discuss the scientific evidence for God, please propose a new thread over at [forum=-25].
Discussion here at EvC Forum takes the form of evidence and argument. You need both. The Forum Guidelines state:
  1. Points should be supported with evidence and/or reasoned argumentation. Address rebuttals through the introduction of additional evidence or by enlarging upon the argument. Do not repeat previous points without further elaboration. Avoid bare assertions.
Take special note of the last portion, "Avoid bare assertions." Most of your messages have consisted of bare assertions with no supporting evidence or argument, even after being challenged.
Enforcement of the Forum Guidelines is in the form of temporary suspensions, usually beginning at 24 hours.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by there is no evo proof, posted 04-21-2008 4:49 PM there is no evo proof has not replied

  
there is no evo proof
Member (Idle past 5839 days)
Posts: 8
Joined: 04-21-2008


Message 48 of 56 (464122)
04-23-2008 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by New Cat's Eye
04-21-2008 4:13 PM


my point exactly were not in a closed system

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22480
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 49 of 56 (464139)
04-23-2008 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by New Cat's Eye
04-21-2008 4:13 PM


Catholic Scientist writes:
If we're not in a closed system then the 2nd law of Thermo doesn't apply.
Actually, 2LOT holds for both open and closed systems. It's just that thermodynamic problems are easier to consider for closed systems, so we usually talk about closed systems rather than open ones. The simplest statement of 2LOT is for a closed system, i.e., "Entropy cannot decrease in a closed system."
--Percy

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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 56 (464337)
04-24-2008 9:54 PM


Some problematic factors relative to alleged absolute zero are:
1. There was no place/area in which it could have existed.
2. There was no place/area in which it could have expanded into.
3. There was no time in which it could have existed.
4. It satisfies none of the LOTs.
Edited by Buzsaw, : as designated in context
Edited by Buzsaw, : fix tech error in first edit

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Percy, posted 04-25-2008 5:58 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22480
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 51 of 56 (464370)
04-25-2008 5:58 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Buzsaw
04-24-2008 9:54 PM


Buzsaw writes:
Some problematic factors relative to alleged absolute zero are:
There was no alleged absolute zero. As was explained in the the first reply in this thread (Message 3) and elaborated on in subsequent posts, the universe began in a small, dense extremely hot state, definitely not absolute zero.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Buzsaw, posted 04-24-2008 9:54 PM Buzsaw has replied

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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 56 (464471)
04-25-2008 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Percy
04-25-2008 5:58 AM


No Absolute Zero
Percy writes:
There was no alleged absolute zero. As was explained in the the first reply in this thread (Message 3) and elaborated on in subsequent posts, the universe began in a small, dense extremely hot state, definitely not absolute zero.
Then I would assume that the problems I've cited would apply to the extremely hot state, having no place to exist, no outside of and no time in which it could have existed.
Is this state called the singularity? If not what would you call it?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Percy, posted 04-25-2008 5:58 AM Percy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Rahvin, posted 04-25-2008 7:51 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4039
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.2


Message 53 of 56 (464481)
04-25-2008 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Buzsaw
04-25-2008 6:46 PM


Re: No Absolute Zero
Then I would assume that the problems I've cited would apply to the extremely hot state, having no place to exist, no outside of and no time in which it could have existed.
Is this state called the singularity? If not what would you call it?
It would seem you have a misconception regarding the Big Bang model.
At T=0, you cannot say there was "no time in which it (the Universe) could have existed." T=0 is simply a coordinate, a location in time, which is a dimension in the same sense as the spacial dimension. To say that "time did not exist at T=0" is not true; you could say that the concept of "before" T=0 does not make sense in the same way that asking what is North of teh North Pole does not make sense, but in no way is there a suggestion that there is "no time in which it could have existed."
Similarly, at T=0 the spacial dimensions length, width and height were "smaller" than they are today. In fact, it is the constriction of the spacial dimensions (a reversal of the directly observed expansion of the Universe) that causes the extreme density and heat of the first moments - all of the energy and matter in the Universe were compressed into a very small volume.
But again, saying that the spacial dimensions were smaller than they are today, even to the degree where the entirety of the Universe was compressed to a size analogous to a modern atom, still does not suggest there is "no place" in which the matter and energy of the Universe could exist. It's true that it did not exist in the form we see today, as it was too hot and too small for conventional atoms and subatomic particles - it took time for the Universe to expand and cool down enough to form even protons and electrons from the quark-gluon plasma. But again, the Big Bang model does not imply there was ever "no space," just as it does not imply that there was ever "no time."
The "no outside" bit is a conundrum. There may be additional dimensions of which the four dimensions of space and time that comprise our Universe are but a subset, meaning there could be multiple Universe existing in a fifth dimension of sorts. But the Big Bang model doesn't involve such things - there are hypotheses out there that suggest additional dimensions, but they aren't relevant to this discussion as they have been inadequately tested (as far as I understand, they are mathematical models that require testing to determine accuracy and relevance to reality).
The singularity is the point at which the mathematics and laws of physics we currently use stop making any sense when applied to the state of the Universe. In the time between T=0 and T=10^-43, which is the barest, tiniest fraction of a second, we cannot describe the Universe or make meaningful testable predictions regarding the Universe because of the extreme conditions of density and heat. We require additional information regarding high-energy physics to venture into that bare moment, and scientists are working on experiments to gain that information as we speak.
So your "problems" with the Big Bang model don't really exist. There is no point in the existence of the Universe where there is "no time." There is no point in the existence of the Universe where there is "no space." Time and space are features of the Universe, and your "problems" are analogous to saying "your model of water doesn't work because there was no wet." "Wetness" is a property of water; when discussing the Universe, time and space are basically what we're discussing, and can never be said to "not exist" without the Universe not existing.
And of course the Big Bang is not a model of the "origin" of the Universe in terms of explaining why it exists; it is a model of the observed expansion of the Universe, with testable predictions regarding the past all the way back to T=0.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Buzsaw, posted 04-25-2008 6:46 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Buzsaw, posted 04-25-2008 10:18 PM Rahvin has not replied
 Message 55 by Calypso, posted 04-26-2008 12:35 AM Rahvin has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 56 (464490)
04-25-2008 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Rahvin
04-25-2008 7:51 PM


Re: No Absolute Zero
Rahven writes:
But again, saying that the spacial dimensions were smaller than they are today, even to the degree where the entirety of the Universe was compressed to a size analogous to a modern atom, still does not suggest there is "no place" in which the matter and energy of the Universe could exist.
Your phrase does not suggest there is "no place" in which the matter and energy of the Universe could exist implies a place in which the matter and energy of the Universe could exist, does it not? If so, when Universe was T=0 what place/area did it exist in? If you say "no place" then we're back to square one relative to my problem that there was no place for the singularity to have existed.
As well, the 1LoT which we observe as a law of of science apparantly did not apply unless the alleged singularity was eternal.
What it seems to boil down to is that the singularity and the Big Bang model has as many, if not more unknowns as the Buzsaw ID creationist model.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Rahvin, posted 04-25-2008 7:51 PM Rahvin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Percy, posted 04-26-2008 7:45 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Calypso
Junior Member (Idle past 5176 days)
Posts: 28
Joined: 06-05-2006


Message 55 of 56 (464495)
04-26-2008 12:35 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Rahvin
04-25-2008 7:51 PM


Re: No Absolute Zero
Rahvin writes:
And of course the Big Bang is not a model of the "origin" of the Universe in terms of explaining why it exists; it is a model of the observed expansion of the Universe, with testable predictions regarding the past all the way back to T=0.
Did you mean back to T=10^-43 seconds?

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22480
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 56 of 56 (464512)
04-26-2008 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Buzsaw
04-25-2008 10:18 PM


Re: No Absolute Zero
A thread titled The Big Bang and Absolute Zero may not be the best place to discuss your T=0 issues. Perhaps you should propose a thread over at [forum=-25].
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
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