A Little Practice in Faith

truthlover responds to me:

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But you still need to tell us what a child needed to learn through the pain of being raped and murdered.

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Been addressed, and I didn't say a child would learn something from being raped and murdered.

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No, but you did bring up the following (Message 36): So please let me know: What could possibly be the point of a child being raped and murdered? What is the spiritual point?And again, why the middleman? If the physical time is so insignificant, if nothing here is of any importance compared to the spiritual, why have the physical at all? Why put so many people through so much suffering for nothing?

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I've not been raped. It sounds horrible. I do know a couple people who have been raped, and they both love God. I do not believe evil occurrences on earth demands or proves that a good God cannot exist.

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I didn't say it did. While that was a possibility, that wasn't a necessary conclusion.There were multiple possibilities that god does exist but for some reason does not stop it. One is that god can't. Another is that god is capricious and arbitrary.You're sure there's another answer, but you don't want to give any details as to what it may be.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

'There were multiple possibilities that god does exist but for some reason does not stop it. One is that god can't. 'if God did stop every evil from man's sinful and wicked heart it would quite clearly mean that God had lost by being tempted of evil.evil would have won.every evil act -he would respond,isn't it easier to see that rape and murder is evil from man , otherwise the commandment to not kill would instead be 'i will stop you from killing'.if a man loves his neighbour like Godsaid do then none of us would suffer from rape or murder, but since this wickedness is within our own hearts and we dont love our neighbour we then suffer the prices of sin.

mike the wiz responds to me:

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There were multiple possibilities that god does exist but for some reason does not stop it. One is that god can't.

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if God did stop every evil from man's sinful and wicked heart it would quite clearly mean that God had lost by being tempted of evil.

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Oh? Why? Weren't Adam and Eve without sin and wicked heart? Wasn't Mary born without sin? Wasn't Noah the only good man left on the planet? Why do these other people get to be perfect?

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evil would have won.every evil act -he would respond,isn't it easier to see that rape and murder is evil from man , otherwise the commandment to not kill would instead be 'i will stop you from killing'.

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Um, why not simply make man such that they don't do evil? After all, Adam and Eve weren't evil. All god needed to do was keep an eye on the serpent. Even better, all god had to do was simply not put the Tree of Knowledge in the garden and we'd never have to worry about the serpent or any other animal.

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if a man loves his neighbour like Godsaid do then none of us would suffer from rape or murder,

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But the devil tempts people.And god turns people's hearts to stone and makes them sin.Why not construct man to be of the kind that they love their neighbor as themselves naturally?------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This answer is for both Rrhain and Pogo. "I don't know" may not be satisfying to you, nor can I say that it is "satisfying" to me. However, it is an answer, and it can sometimes be the most accurate answer.What I know is that overall life is good enough that almost no one wishes they weren't still alive, even those who have been raped or abused as a child, although they may wish such a thing while it were happening.If the bad things were the only occurrences we see around us, then perhaps I would draw the same conclusions you do. They are not. Overall, life is a good thing, as the vast majority of the living agree, and there is enough in life in general, and in the lives of those I can watch, to make it clear to me there's a hand in control of it. You judge that there is either no hand, or it is weak or capricious. I do not, despite the suffering I see, and a lot of the sufferers are with me in that. This again is way too general a question for me to want to address here. If this were another topic, maybe, but I probably wouldn't participate in the thread if this were the question. I have lots of thoughts, and so does just about everyone else.Anyway, past history says answering such a question to you would lead to pages long responses, all demanding that I see vague points and ideas you have and agree with assertions you make. Just the thought makes me tired.

'Why not construct man to be of the kind that they love their neighbor as themselves naturally?'sin is foreign to God , as said in the bible,indeed God fixed mans sin by coming to earth and being killed in the flesh and suffering for our sin ,what more do you want ,what else would you have him do?
if it is a perfect place with no sin you seek Rhain then seek the kingdom of God.'But the devil tempts people.And god turns people's hearts to stone and makes them sin.'yes evil tempts people yet God still accepts us if we believe in his name.if people truly seek God and good ways then their hearts will care more for good rather than evil.

truthlover responds to me:

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So please let me know: What could possibly be the point of a child being raped and murdered? What is the spiritual point?

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This answer is for both Rrhain and Pogo. "I don't know" may not be satisfying to you, nor can I say that it is "satisfying" to me. However, it is an answer, and it can sometimes be the most accurate answer.

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Not quite. It's a response, but it isn't an answer. It can be an acceptable response, but it is still just a response.The problem is that "I don't know" isn't the only thing you're saying. You're saying, "I don't know, but I'm certain there is a point."And that's the point I'm trying to get at: How on earth can you be so certain that there is a point to torturing an innocent? And even if there is a point, how can you be so certain that this point can't be made any other way?

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What I know is that overall life is good enough that almost no one wishes they weren't still alive, even those who have been raped or abused as a child, although they may wish such a thing while it were happening.

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But everyone who has been raped and abused most likely wishes it didn't happen.Why can't god figure out a way to do what needs to be done without the torture of innocents? If god can't do it, who can?The problem is not the existence of suffering so much as it is the existence of suffering foisted upon people so clearly undeserving of it.

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And again, why the middleman? If the physical time is so insignificant, if nothing here is of any importance compared to the spiritual, why have the physical at all? Why put so many people through so much suffering for nothing?

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This again is way too general a question for me to want to address here.

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Then you'll forgive me if I keep repeating it until you decide that you want to address it. It's a very important question for those of us trying to understand where you're coming from. I don't expect a snappy answer, but I do expect some sort of answer.

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I have lots of thoughts, and so does just about everyone else.

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And I want to know what they are.Why are you holding back?

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Anyway, past history says answering such a question to you would lead to pages long responses, all demanding that I see vague points and ideas you have and agree with assertions you make. Just the thought makes me tired.

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If you think I can change your convictions simply by talking to you for a few minutes, then they're not your convictions to begin with.Why is the deep, meticulous examination of your philosophy "tiring"?------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Wow, I think I figured out how to respond to you. Well, we'll see how this goes. I said and am saying, "Basically, there's a lot more evidence about life and its purposes than just that really terrible things happen to human children and children of other species."I agree that if there was nothing else going on around us than the torture of innocents, then I would have to conclude this is a horrible, malicious universe, and hopefully no one is in charge and responsible of the horror and maliciousness.However, there's a lot more going on than the torture of innocents. Things happen that provide evidence to me of purpose and intervention by a God who cares about his creation. You are focused on the torture of innocents, and it's all you are discussing. To you, it's so overwhelming, all other evidence ought to be ignored.It's not to me, and when I tell you that, you don't ask about the other evidence, you ask--as far as I can tell--why I pay attention to anything else but the torture of innocents.When I answer that there is a lot more going on around us that is good and purposeful, in my opinion, you bring up the torture of innocents again and claim that I've given you no answer.We could go around and around like that forever. I don't know why, and if he can't, then no one can. However, being of limited knowledge, and seeing the hand of God a lot in my life and the lives of others, I believe there's a God, a good God, who has the ability to control all of life. I do not know why the innocent are occasionally tortured, or why people regularly die a slow, terribly painful death of chemotherapy and cancer. Hmm. As far as I can tell, you're the only one asking. Two reasons. One, time. Two, there's no point. I suspect that the other "those of us" who might care where I'm coming from, could guess as well as I could as to why there might be a physical existence as well as an eternal spiritual one.If your point is to say, "Let's discuss why there's a physical existence so that I can show you that there is no possible reason that any god would insert a physical existence into a long term spiritual one," then that's pointless, too, because I don't think that kind of thing is knowable.I don't even spend my time thinking about such things, much less debating them. Long, pointless discussions are tiring. There is a difference between deep and long, and meticulous examinations should be saved for important subjects. Who defines important? For me, me. For you, you.

truthlover responds to me:

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The problem is that "I don't know" isn't the only thing you're saying. You're saying, "I don't know, but I'm certain there is a point."
And that's the point I'm trying to get at: How on earth can you be so certain that there is a point to torturing an innocent? And even if there is a point, how can you be so certain that this point can't be made any other way?

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I said and am saying, "Basically, there's a lot more evidence about life and its purposes than just that really terrible things happen to human children and children of other species."

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But that doesn't answer the question. Of course there is a lot more about life than terrible things, but the question is about the terrible things. What did a child do to deserve torture? What purpose does it serve? Why can't this purpose be carried out in some other way that doesn't involve the destruction of an innocent?Once again, you seem to have settled upon the third option of god being capricious and arbitrary.

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I agree that if there was nothing else going on around us than the torture of innocents, then I would have to conclude this is a horrible, malicious universe, and hopefully no one is in charge and responsible of the horror and maliciousness.

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But that only takes care of the first possibility, that there is no god. Instead, you seem to have taken the third option, that god is capricious and arbitrary.

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However, there's a lot more going on than the torture of innocents. Things happen that provide evidence to me of purpose and intervention by a God who cares about his creation. You are focused on the torture of innocents, and it's all you are discussing. To you, it's so overwhelming, all other evidence ought to be ignored.

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Not at all. In fact, it is because that we see all of the things that are not the torture of innocents that makes us focus on it. Since this god of yours is so capable of doing all these other things that are not the torture of innocents, why is it that he can't manage to take care of that, too?We're back to the third option: God is capricious and arbitrary.

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It's not to me, and when I tell you that, you don't ask about the other evidence, you ask--as far as I can tell--why I pay attention to anything else but the torture of innocents.

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That's because we already accept that there are things that aren't the torture of innocents. It is because we can see things that are not horrific that we can distinguish the horrific things and wonder why they occur. You seem to be certain that there is a point for them but are reluctant to discuss what that point may be.So we are left with the third option: God is capricious and arbitrary.

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When I answer that there is a lot more going on around us that is good and purposeful, in my opinion, you bring up the torture of innocents again and claim that I've given you no answer.

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That's because you haven't. You're right that we're not focusing on the good things in life because we aren't questioning those. If god is loving and caring and active and present, then it makes sense that there are good things going on. That leaves the terrible things to have to explain. If god is loving and caring and active and present, then what on earth is the point of the torture of the innocent?

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We could go around and around like that forever.

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And we seem to be.If you don't want to discuss it, then just say so. Don't avoid the issue claiming you have answered or make up excuses. Simply say you don't want to.

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Why can't god figure out a way to do what needs to be done without the torture of innocents? If god can't do it, who can?

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I don't know why, and if he can't, then no one can. However, being of limited knowledge, and seeing the hand of God a lot in my life and the lives of others, I believe there's a God, a good God, who has the ability to control all of life. I do not know why the innocent are occasionally tortured, or why people regularly die a slow, terribly painful death of chemotherapy and cancer.

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So you're going with option three: God is capricious and arbitrary.

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It's a very important question for those of us trying to understand where you're coming from.

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Hmm. As far as I can tell, you're the only one asking.

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No, I'm the only one continuing to ask. I wasn't the one that came up with the three options. That was Dan Carroll (Message 23). And then there was Pogo's responses to you (Message 27, for example).

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I don't even spend my time thinking about such things, much less debating them.

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Well, maybe you should. To quote one of my lines from the play I'm in, "I think we should all be open to any opportunity to learn more about ourselves. I think Socrates was very right when he said that one of the first rules in life for anyone is 'Know thyself.'"If you don't want to, fine. But please don't make excuses.

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Why is the deep, meticulous examination of your philosophy "tiring"?

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Long, pointless discussions are tiring.

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It's pointless to understand your own philosophy and its implications?

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There is a difference between deep and long, and meticulous examinations should be saved for important subjects. Who defines important? For me, me. For you, you.

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Indeed. I guess I'm just shocked that you find your personal philosophy to be unimportant to you.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Actually, we're back to the fourth option, that none of us really know, maybe--hold your breath and be shocked here--not even you!!

truthlover responds to me:

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Actually, we're back to the fourth option, that none of us really know, maybe--hold your breath and be shocked here--not even you!!

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No, that's not quite it. You're not simply saying you don't know. You're saying you don't know what the reason is, but you know that there is a reason.That's option three: God is capricious and arbitrary.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!