EvC Forum: Meaning of "Us" in Genesis.

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Topic: Meaning of "Us" in Genesis.

New Cat's Eye

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Message 47 of 194 (458377)
02-28-2008 5:30 PM

Reply to: Message 46 by gomisaburo
02-28-2008 5:00 PM

Re: Psalm 34:8

...imagine an enemy of God intellectually superior to us by a profound margin muddling our thoughts in this present day and age by infecting our hearts with all sorts of pollutants, having thousands of years to perfect his method.

It seems strange to hear "common sense" referred to as a "pollutant", but whatever floats your boat.

I wasn't referring to common sense when I used the word pollutants. But if I was, I do think you would have a good point.

But if we use common sense to determine that god was wrong, then the pollutant would be common sense.

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	Message 46 by gomisaburo, posted 02-28-2008 5:00 PM		gomisaburo has not replied

New Cat's Eye

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Message 90 of 194 (461423)
03-25-2008 12:09 PM

Reply to: Message 89 by Australia 501
03-25-2008 11:58 AM

Re: "Us" is God and Angels

Hello Howard Shaw,

Welcome to EvC Forum.

quote:
I believe this is the sixth (day means yom, day or eon of time) making of the wonderful indigenous folks of all the lands of the earth, these people were made in a multitude of images and didn't eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and lived exactly as their blessing says in Gen 1: 26 to 31. They ate of virtually anything they could, and only took what they needed, and looked after the earth, so it could sustain them.
Very much unlike Adams decendants who have taken more than they need and made a mess of the earth today known as Environmental Devastation

I also believe the indigineous people didn't die in the flood, as it was not a world wide event. I believe the flood was only in the Mesopotamia region between the mountains of Iran, Turkey, Syria, Israel, Midian and Arabia and across where I believe the flood, when high enough, breached the Straits of Hamaz and flowed into the Persian Gulf.

You are more than welcome to your beliefs, but without any Biblical support for them, aren't you just making stuff up?

quote:
I also believe the indigineous people didn't die in the flood, as it was not a world wide event.

Gen 6:17 writes:

And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

Its pretty straight forward that the Bible claims that "everything" died.

quote:
When we read Gen 2: 7 you will find that Adam was given a blessing called "the Breath of Life". And as we know he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, a curse that his decendants also inherited, and as we know the evil outnumbered the good, so the Almighty Yahweh decided to deal with the doers of evil, with a Flood. The Ark was made and loaded up. Did it have every creature on the face of the whole earth aboard, such as Anacondas, Polar Bears and Kangaroos? No, there are up to four million different animal species on the whole earth. There is no way known, in excess of ten million creatures, are going to fit on the Ark.

Genesis doesn't claim that Noah brought every species onto the ark....

And getting back to the Breath of Life blessing of Adam, you will find in Gen 7: 22 that the only people that died in the Flood were the ones that had "the breath of life". The indigenous folk that were created during the sixth eon of time were spared from the great flood, as they mainly lived outside the flood zone, and lived on, as did Noah, his wife, his three sons and their three wives.

Please support this Biblically so I know that you're not just making it up.

Edited by Catholic Scientist, : 2 typos

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	Message 89 by Australia 501, posted 03-25-2008 11:58 AM		Australia 501 has replied

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	Message 93 by Australia 501, posted 03-25-2008 8:46 PM		New Cat's Eye has replied

New Cat's Eye

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Message 95 of 194 (461573)
03-26-2008 9:55 AM

Reply to: Message 93 by Australia 501
03-25-2008 8:46 PM

Re: "Us" is God and Angels

What I pointed out was a different scenario to the one that has been put forward by the churches for hundreds of years. Everything that I wrote is supported by the Bible, I just see and interpret things differently to what has been taught.

You seem to be adding a lot of extra stuff that the Bible doesn't mention.

Its a nice little story, but you're just making it up. (no offense)

All of these things I believe weren't created in six 24 hour days, or even six 1000 year days as some teach. The Almighty is a creator, and to create anything that is good, takes time, ask any master craftsman.

An almighty (omnipotent) craftsman? Couldn't he do it in the blink of an eye if he was truley almighty? If he couldn't, then is he truly almighty?

People have asked me were do the dinosaurs fit into this, the answer is simple, they were obviosly created during the 5th and 6th eons of time.

Obviously!?

The Bible doesn't even mention dinosaurs...

I hate to break it to you, but the Bible is not inerrant.

Don't you think that the meaning of "Us" could be really nothing in particular and that god was just talking in first person plural. Like when people use "the proverbial We".

Or like how Carl Malone talks in 3rd person...

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	Message 93 by Australia 501, posted 03-25-2008 8:46 PM		Australia 501 has not replied

New Cat's Eye

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Message 96 of 194 (461574)
03-26-2008 9:59 AM

Reply to: Message 94 by Recon3rd
03-26-2008 8:03 AM

Re: 3 in 1

Remove the life giving spirit and the body dies but the spirit and soul still live.

What do you mean remove the life giving spirit? And how do you still have it (still live) if you've removed it?

Also, the soul is the combination of the body and the spirit. When the body dies, the spirit lives on but the spirit/body is no longer a living soul.

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	Message 94 by Recon3rd, posted 03-26-2008 8:03 AM		Recon3rd has replied

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	Message 97 by Recon3rd, posted 03-27-2008 8:22 AM		New Cat's Eye has replied

New Cat's Eye

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Message 98 of 194 (461756)
03-27-2008 5:05 PM

Reply to: Message 97 by Recon3rd
03-27-2008 8:22 AM

Re: 3 in 1

Of course this is all speculation, but:

I mean when our spirit has been released from it's home, our body, it's dead (the body) as in ceasing to exist as a life form.

This seems bass-ackwards to me. The body doesn't die because the spirit is released. The spirit is released because the body has died.

The soul is what makes you who you are not what you are and is influenced by our body/flesh as well as our spirit.

Who you are is a body with a spirit. When the body dies and you are just spirit, then you are no longer who you were. If the soul continues to be, then it must at least change.

The spirit is what we are.

But your a body too. I think the soul is what you are, which is a body and spirit.

So when a body dies it's dead not the life giving spirit and its soul.

So then the soul is different after the body dies?

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	Message 97 by Recon3rd, posted 03-27-2008 8:22 AM		Recon3rd has replied

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	Message 99 by Recon3rd, posted 03-28-2008 8:14 AM		New Cat's Eye has replied

New Cat's Eye

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Message 100 of 194 (461930)
03-28-2008 5:19 PM

Reply to: Message 99 by Recon3rd
03-28-2008 8:14 AM

Souls changing

We are not a body, we live in a body. We ARE spirits and we LIVE in this body, when the two are combined they create a soul which is WHO we are.

So then would the "WHO you are" change when you go from being a body with a spirit to just a spirit?

If the soul is created when the body and spirit are combined, how could seperating the spirit from the body not change the soul?

The soul is WHO we are so it remains itself, after the body dies it no longer has any influence over our soul.

So then the soul is different?

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	Message 99 by Recon3rd, posted 03-28-2008 8:14 AM		Recon3rd has replied

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	Message 101 by Recon3rd, posted 03-29-2008 8:03 AM		New Cat's Eye has replied

New Cat's Eye

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Message 102 of 194 (462021)
03-29-2008 12:43 PM

Reply to: Message 101 by Recon3rd
03-29-2008 8:03 AM

Re: Souls changing

Do you believe we were created in Gods image?

I suppose. But I'm not really sure what that means, 'image'. Image suggests something visual. Do you think god has eyeballs?

The soul is what makes us who we are, all the qualities you posses comes from your soul, it's your personality it's what distinguishes you from your neighbor. The death of the body doesn't destroy what the spirit created, our soul defines who we are as men.

To me, it seems like my body has a big effect on my soul.

It {the soul} does {change} to the extent that the body no longer has an influence over it. The soul of the spirit man now walks according to his spirit.

But without my body, my soul will 'behave' differently.

When someone dies people will say things like, he was a good man he always helped whom ever he could, he was a good husband and good father and so on. They aren't talking about his body but his soul.

I'm not so sure about that.

What if they had described him as a really horny man... Being horny comes from your body, not your spirit. THe soul of the horny man with no body would no longer be horny anymore.

Our soul, which is influenced by our body and our spirit makes the determination of whats right and wrong. You don't miss the body you miss the person who lived in it, the soul of the man.

When a hot chick drops her pants and bends over in front of me, its not my soul that effects my behavior.

When somebody starts a fight, its not my soul that effects my behavior.

THe soul is the combination of the body and spirit, so when the body is no longer, the soul has to at least change. It has lost the influence of the body.

Genesis says that man became a living soul when the spirit joined the body. When the body is lost, man is no longer a living soul. But is it that man is no longer a soul anymore, or just not a living one?

The Bible seems unclear on that.

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	Message 101 by Recon3rd, posted 03-29-2008 8:03 AM		Recon3rd has replied

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	Message 103 by Recon3rd, posted 03-30-2008 7:45 AM	New Cat's Eye has not replied
	Message 106 by IamJoseph, posted 04-18-2008 11:29 AM	New Cat's Eye has replied

New Cat's Eye

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Message 108 of 194 (463576)
04-18-2008 12:19 PM

Reply to: Message 106 by IamJoseph
04-18-2008 11:29 AM

Re: Souls changing

The image law is limited to 'worshiping' an image only,

Source?

which in turn relates to not comparing the Creator with anything within his creation. This is very logical: the creator must, at least, transcend his creation.

Hmmm, then you don't think that Jesus was actually God?

Ultimately, this is a good advocation, to avoid a wrong path. Ultimately, all reasonings and beliefs, scientific or religious, culminate in ONE.

One what?

This is most applicable in a finite universe - which is the opening four words in Genesis: there was a BEGINNING.

Having a beginning doesn't necessitate being finite... just sayin'.

But humans are fastened to their senses, and an invisable, indescribable and undefinable Creator does impact on human frailities.

How do you know?

However, this does not happen in actuality: the closest between two dots is when there is nothing in between.

If there is nothing in between then you no longer have two dots but one.

But getting there is not easy, and once images are used, they become engrained and not discardable any more. Since Judaism, only Islam was able to uphold this premise. And the Hebrews failed at a most crucial instant, and were given assistance to dislodge this trait - with the pledges from Moses.

Huh?

Could you please expound the premise you are referring to as "this premise" because I didn't really understand what you said.

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	Message 106 by IamJoseph, posted 04-18-2008 11:29 AM		IamJoseph has replied

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	Message 109 by IamJoseph, posted 04-18-2008 12:54 PM		New Cat's Eye has not replied

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