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Author Topic:   Socialism bailing out capitalism? (The Federal Reserve and the Banking problems)
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 38 (461212)
03-23-2008 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Minnemooseus
03-23-2008 12:29 AM


Am I mistaken in interpreting the Federal Reserve Banks efforts such as the assisting of rescuing Bear Stearns as an example of socialism being used to save us from certain excesses and abuses of capitalism?
Not really. It is actually a common phenomenon of modern industrial (and, perhaps, "post-industrial") capitalism.
The idea that the economy should be "regulated" by the mythical "invisible hand" was formulated by the earliest capitalists (like Adam Smith) back in a time when the economy was considered to consist of many small individual buyers and sellers, each one too small to have a significant effect on the industry. This is still the view held by grade school children and libertarians.
In real life the era of small businesses passed long ago, if it ever existed to begin with. Most industries are now dominated by a very small number of corporations forming oligopolies and/or oligopsonies. In this case, one corporation can and does have a huge effect on the industry, which seems to be the case here.
So, the goverment becoming involved in the economy is no more a violation of classical capitalism than the fact that Bear Stearns has, individually, such a huge potential effect on the economy.
But capitalism vs. socialism has never been defined by laissez faire vs. active government response. It is true that the long out-dated classical capitalist theory (now only taught in grade schools and libertarian circle jerks) always advocated no government involvement in economic affairs (except in unusual and carefully delineated areas), but that has never been the defining characteristic of capitalism.
The defining characteristics of capitalism vs. socialism is who controls the means of production. That is what the "capital" in "capitalism" means, after all.

There is a tragic flaw in our precious Constitution, and I don't know what can be done to fix it. This is it: Only nut cases want to be president. -- Kurt Vonnegut

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Minnemooseus, posted 03-23-2008 12:29 AM Minnemooseus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Silent H, posted 03-23-2008 3:01 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 38 (461216)
03-23-2008 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Silent H
03-23-2008 3:01 PM


Thus while Bush and Co had no interest in redistributing public money to help save individuals who were losing their homes, as that would be socialism, there was no issue with giving the money to corporations.
The saying among us dippy hippy left wing types concerning American capitalism is: "profit has been privatized, risk has been socialized."
-
Hey, I used to enjoy those!
Heh. I actually have fond memories of when libertarianism was the most popular form of "conservatism" where I grew up. (Although, in those days, I was more of the Christian fundamentalist type of "regulate every aspect of your private bahavior, and build an efficient police state to do it" conservatism. I was always something of a contrarian.)

There is a tragic flaw in our precious Constitution, and I don't know what can be done to fix it. This is it: Only nut cases want to be president. -- Kurt Vonnegut

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Silent H, posted 03-23-2008 3:01 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Silent H, posted 03-23-2008 5:43 PM Chiroptera has not replied
 Message 35 by Silent H, posted 04-03-2008 5:23 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 38 (461218)
03-23-2008 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Grizz
03-23-2008 3:59 PM


Politics (and economics) is pretty much the same thing as religion. It has nothing to do with facts or logic; people believe what they believe, and will force whatever facts to fit into their beliefs, and trot out the same old tired jingles and claim it's a logical argument.

There is a tragic flaw in our precious Constitution, and I don't know what can be done to fix it. This is it: Only nut cases want to be president. -- Kurt Vonnegut

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Grizz, posted 03-23-2008 3:59 PM Grizz has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 38 (461329)
03-24-2008 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by randman
03-24-2008 12:23 PM


the FED is privately owned -- well, not really
The Federal Reserve System is "privately owned" in the sense that all banks in the US are privately owned, and most of them are members of the Federal Reserve System.
However, the Federal Reserve System is governed by political appointees, not by a board of directors appointed by private individuals.
quote:
From Wikipedia:
The twelve regional Federal Reserve Banks, which were established by Congress as the operating arms of the nation's central banking system, are organized much like private corporations--possibly leading to some confusion about "ownership." For example, the Reserve Banks issue shares of stock to member banks. However, owning Reserve Bank stock is quite different from owning stock in a private company. The Reserve Banks are not operated for profit, and ownership of a certain amount of stock is, by law, a condition of membership in the System. The stock may not be sold, traded, or pledged as security for a loan; dividends are, by law, 6 percent per year.'
Concerning governance:
quote:
Also from Wikipedia:
The seven-member Board of Governors is the main governing body of the Federal Reserve System. It is charged with overseeing the 12 District Reserve Banks and with helping implement national monetary policy. Governors are appointed by the President of the United States and confirmed by the Senate....
Each Federal Reserve Bank has a board of directors...drawn from the general public and the banking community and oversee the activities of the organization. They also appoint the presidents of the Reserve Banks, subject to the approval of the Board of Governors....
Each Federal Reserve Bank is subject to oversight by a Board of Governors.

There is a tragic flaw in our precious Constitution, and I don't know what can be done to fix it. This is it: Only nut cases want to be president. -- Kurt Vonnegut

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by randman, posted 03-24-2008 12:23 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by randman, posted 03-24-2008 2:27 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
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