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Author | Topic: Theories of Cosmological Origins: Are They Science? | |||||||||||||||||||
teen4christ Member (Idle past 5829 days) Posts: 238 Joined: |
Ok, let me try to take a stab at this.
You wrote
quote:From what I know of physics (and I am a college physics and chem major), nothing about prior to T=10^-43 is known except that our current model just doesn't apply there. Unless you're including "I don't know" in the faith catagory, I simply don't know how you could describe this part of science as faith. quote:You're right that the singularity is not the universe. I don't think anyone is going to dispute with you here. The singularity is a description of a state of unknown that so far science has been unable to describe or model. If you have trouble comprehending this, simply replace the word "singularity" with "absolute unknown". Nothing we know about the universe can help us understand the singularity. About the only thing we know about it right now is none of our theories and mathematical models work in such condition. Again, if you want to place the "I don't know" in the faith catagory, then I guess we are in agreement.
quote:Sure, there is. Based on our mathematical model of such an early universe, it had to be very dense and very hot. In other words, the whole universe back then had to be glowing hot. If the universe expanded to its current size from this very small pea size, the prediction under the mathematical model was that there must be an after glow of this very dense, very hot condition. What's more, this after glow should be seen just about evenly throughout the universe everywhere no matter what direction we look. Sure enough, the cosmic background radiation was discovered. This cosmic background radiation is found everywhere we look at in the universe. It is just about evenly distributed throughout the cosmos. About the only thing that we can possibly imagine that could have placed this cosmic background radiation this evenly everywhere in the universe is if the universe started out as a very small, very dense, very hot thing.
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teen4christ Member (Idle past 5829 days) Posts: 238 Joined: |
ICANT writes
quote:Several reasons, actually. When things are compacted, they tend to heat up. This is pretty much the same for everything we know of. But another thing is it had to be very hot in order to leave a foot print as prevalent and homogeneous as the cosmic background radiation. quote:I suppose you could see it that way also. quote:That's just it. We don't know anything was there. Human intuition, however, tells us that since there was something there a little bit later, there probably must have been something there right before that point. Suppose you are walking along in a forest. On your path is a fallen tree. From the look of it, it probably was very recent that the tree fell. Burnt marks indicate that lightning was the cause. I'm pretty sure it's reasonable to assume from the burnt marks that it was very hot when the lightning struck the tree. Sure, we could also assume that the tree simply poofed into existence fallen and with burnt marks. But ask yourself which assumption out of the two is more feasible?
quote:If you're referring to the old "tired light" concept where the combined light of the fixed stars in the heavens contributed a calculable temperature of space, I don't know where you got the "better job" part from. Those theories assumed that the stars in our galaxy were all there was and there was no external galaxies. If anything, those scientists back then lacked sufficient data so they worked with whatever they had available. If you are referring to something else, please let me know. I've done extensive research into this matter in the past for a project.
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teen4christ Member (Idle past 5829 days) Posts: 238 Joined: |
ICANT writes
quote:I've skimmed through that thread. From what I was able to glean from it, they pounded you because of your persistence to treat the word "singularity" as a thing rather than a mathematical description of a state of complete unknown. quote:Well, ok. Scratch the forest part. Suppose you're walking in a desert or an arid environment. The analogy stands. quote:I think this is where other people might have a problem with the way you are presenting this. Many, if not most, people would agree that not all assumptions are faith based. Barrack Obama appears racially black to me so I assume that at some point in the past his ancestors must have originated from Africa. This assumption is not faith based at all. It is based on intuition from my previous experiences. From our previous experiences, if we've seen something at, say, point B and it is also moving toward point C, we could safely assume that at some point in the past the thing was at point A. This is not faith. This is simply an assumption based on human intuition that is derived from past experiences. From the evidence, we know that at very near T=0, the universe was very dense and very hot. Human intuition that is derived from past experiences would suggest that there must have been something right before this point that is very near T=0. Please do not confuse this type of assumption to faith based assumption. An example of faith based assumption is the belief in angels. There has been absolutely no physical evidence of the existence of angels. While some people have claimed to have seen angels, most have not. The belief in them, however, persist. This assumption of their existence is faith based.
quote:Your guess is as good as mine. quote:Well, not really. quote:I must say that you have a very odd perception of what the word faith means. Perhaps this will clear it up. Many, if not most, people would agree with me that if I come across a fallen tree with burnt marks, especially after a stormy night, that my believing that lightning struck that tree down is not a faith based assumption. Do you dispute this?
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teen4christ Member (Idle past 5829 days) Posts: 238 Joined: |
ICANT writes
quote:Could you provide a link?
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teen4christ Member (Idle past 5829 days) Posts: 238 Joined: |
ICANT writes
quote:Some would argue that this is a useless definition because of its cryptic nature that could be applied to just about anything. From this definition, I could very well say that our knowledge of the aromatic nature of benzene is based on faith. quote:1 - I did examine the burn marks. 2 - There was a thunder storm last night. 3 - The tree is fallen with no visible sawing mark. quote:And circumstancial evidence for a very dense and very hot early universe as well as the inflationary nature of the universe is exactly what we have. I'm beginning to suspect that you're just being difficult on purpose.
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teen4christ Member (Idle past 5829 days) Posts: 238 Joined: |
ICANT, I just skimmed through the article. I have to question some of the claims. For example, here is something that caught my eyes.
quote:First of all, what's delayed propagation of light through space? This is just a fancy/deceptive way of saying the light is obscured by space debris. The way this sentence is written is designed to distract us from the fact that such an event doesn't cause a red-shift of the light spectrum. quote:This paragraph is a dead give away of the joking nature of this article. MACHOS and WIMPS are very real objects. We've observed them and their affects in deep space. They're just normal objects that are very large floating up there in space. Jupiter could be seen as a MACHO. There's really nothing special about these things. With that said, combining all of the visible matter, we're still about 70% short of the necessary mass to account for what we observe. Hence we call the missing mass "dark matter". Dark matter is exactly that, it's stuff that we haven't found yet. Let me ask you this question. Suppose we just found a body. Autopsy reveals that the person was murdered. The authority wants to call the murderer "dark person" simply because right now they have no idea who the murderer is. The author of that article is using deceptive language to trick the reader into believing the authority is implying that a troll or a leprachan did the murder when in fact all the term "dark person" really means is they don't know who did the murder. Dark matter is just that, stuff that we haven't found or thought of yet. Nothing "weird" about them.
quote:I tend to suspect an article when it starts with "it is generally accepted..." and also "it is well established that..." quote:This paragraph is simply false. The nebulae clouds that we see are composed almost entirely of hydrogen gas. There's no denying this. The author is using a strawman argument. In fact, now that I think about it, this whole article is based entirely on a strawman argument. Hydrogen gas is the most abundant thing in the universe. Nobody is disputing this. So, what's the argument here?
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teen4christ Member (Idle past 5829 days) Posts: 238 Joined: |
bluescat48 writes
quote:Actually, I think most people on here are using both of the wiki definitions of faith you cited. quote:Both describe a system of belief that does not require consistency. By the way, I've been encountering people's tendency to mix up the words "trust" and "faith" for the last few years. I think there is a quiet movement that is trying to make the two words synonymous in the English language.
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teen4christ Member (Idle past 5829 days) Posts: 238 Joined: |
ICANT writes
quote:Could you please add some explanations to your assertions?
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teen4christ Member (Idle past 5829 days) Posts: 238 Joined: |
ICANT writes
quote:As I pointed out in an earlier post that you ignored, they had some assumptions that were completely wrong. If they had the available data like we do now and did the same calculations again, their numbers would have been light years away from the correct values. quote:Noone needs to refute their results because new data after their calculations pretty much proved them wrong. Their entire calculations and predictions were based solely on the assumption that there was no other galaxies beside ours and that the radiation from the stars in our galaxy were enough to give our local space a temperature. But the cosmic background radiation is found not just in our galaxy but also outside of it. It is everywhere no matter where we look. This result fits in perfectly with the prediction of the big bang. I honestly don't know how you can ignore these important facts like this.
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