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Author Topic:   Smart People?
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 46 of 131 (459948)
03-11-2008 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by bluegenes
03-11-2008 3:40 AM


Re: not so smart
My phrase obeys the same rules as the piece you quoted in the O.P.
Yes I see you are but I believe it was written by the researchers and not as a 'bad' speller would write it.
I used the passage to see if the literate people could read it with ease or not. Personally, I found it quite easy to read and paused only momentarily on a couple of the words. Given the replies, it seems there was little distraction in actually deciphering the words.
The point I was making is that the Cambridge research does not mean that bad spelling isn't a hindrance to communication. It merely shows that we can decipher misspellings quite easily if the first and last letters of the words are correctly placed.
That was one observation made by the author that your misspelled words dipute. (I couldn't read a couple of yours at all.) However,that wasn't the case in the OP. They were easily read.
The second observation made by the author is that:
due to the ease in which incorrectly spelled words are read, then spelling is not as important as previously thought.
If you hadn't used the word "good" there, then I wouldn't have disagreed. Correct spelling certainly isn't paramount to communication, but standardized spellings certainly help with the speed of understanding, and make basic communication into "good" communication.
The speed of communication was not in question. Understanding is the basis of good communication.
I don't think anyone here is objecting to the occasional typo or misspelling, as we all make them. But sometimes we get posters who almost seem to make an effort to slow the readers' understanding down. You don't seem to be one of them, judging by this thread.
You have been lucky as it has happened to me many times and I am not the only one. I am not offended by it because I don't care but when the concept is lost time again because others resort to critizing anything they can find, well it pisses me off regards

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Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 47 of 131 (459952)
03-11-2008 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by pelican
03-11-2008 10:03 AM


Re: not so smart
pelican writes:
Personally, I found it quite easy to read and paused only momentarily on a couple of the words. Given the replies, it seems there was little distraction in actually deciphering the words.
Then you are way smarter than me. I couldn't read that sentence at all.
This is one of the reasons why I prefer people to try their best when writing something online to communicate like this. I can't speed read. Words that are not spelled correctly are sometimes not as obvious to me as to other people. It may surprise you to know, but there are also members here who are dyslexic. Every time you intentionally misspell a word, not punctuate correctly, or not capitalize the beginning of a sentence and proper nouns, you make these people's lives a little more difficult.
The second observation made by the author is that:
due to the ease in which incorrectly spelled words are read, then spelling is not as important as previously thought.
Correct spelling, proper punctuation, and whatnot is just a common courtesy. Ok, so most people can probably read that little bit in the OP, but some can't. I, for example, had to go back and forth many times to be able to read most of it. There are still some words that are a mystery to me. I'm pretty sure I'm not the worst case, as some others here have mentioned their dyslexia.
Like Percy said, with the various instantaneous spell checking programs out there, there really is no excuse. By persistently being a bad speller and not properly punctuate, you make our lives a little harder every time we want to read what you have to say.
That said, personally I just skip right over posts that are not written well unless they only have a sentence or two. There were two members here that were vocally admitting that they consciously decided to not capitalize at all as a way to rebel (or whatever). Since they are gone now (they died in the 2008 EvC massacre, I can come out and say it now. I read maybe 1 in 10 of their messages.
The speed of communication was not in question. Understanding is the basis of good communication.
And there are people like myself who rely on good writing to read correctly and then there are those who are worse off than me. Why make our lives miserable by purposefully not capitalize or punctuate correctly?

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ThreeDogs
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 77
From: noli me calcare
Joined: 01-08-2008


Message 48 of 131 (459955)
03-11-2008 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by pelican
03-08-2008 6:37 PM


quote:
More Brain Stuff . . From Cambridge University .
Olny srmat poelpe can raed tihs.
I cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg. The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Amzanig huh? yaeh and I awlyas tghuhot slpeling was ipmorantt!
I had no trouble reading this. It has a certain rhythm/cadence that make reading of any kind pleasurable. Good writing is done by those who consider the written word a form of music. The rest is sleep meds, except when the topic is important to the reader, or student.
Words incorrectly spelled is either a sign of mental illness or personal carelessness. A slob by any other word, spells carelessly and dresses with equal abandon.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by pelican, posted 03-08-2008 6:37 PM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
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fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5520 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 49 of 131 (459971)
03-11-2008 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by pelican
03-11-2008 1:52 AM


Re: The idea behing the OP
It seems all objections to incorrect spelling is from personal judgements and frustrations and nothing to do with the author.
It means that the author does not care enough about the reader in order to politely atempt to spell everything properly.

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Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5032 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 50 of 131 (459972)
03-11-2008 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by pelican
03-10-2008 12:52 AM


Re: grammar vs thought
OMG tmth!
I said, "difficult concept" not none!!
The tighttrope is too thin then?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by pelican, posted 03-10-2008 12:52 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by pelican, posted 03-11-2008 8:46 PM Brad McFall has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 51 of 131 (459988)
03-11-2008 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by ThreeDogs
03-11-2008 11:50 AM


comprehension of passage
I had no trouble reading this. It has a certain rhythm/cadence that make reading of any kind pleasurable. Good writing is done by those who consider the written word a form of music. The rest is sleep meds, except when the topic is important to the reader, or student.
Yes, I can see that. I am a music lover but not everyone is. We each have unique ways of comprehending and communicating. We only know what we know.
I had no trouble reading the passage and I assessed it point by point.
1. I agreed that good literacy skills were essential to read it.
2. The author observed that: it doesn't matter what order the letters are in as long as first and last were in the correct place. I agree this was correct for some but not all, e.g words can be spelled omitting the last letter and still be read.
3. Another observation by the author was: the human mind does not read every letter by itself but the whole word. Again, maybe for some but not for all.
4. I totally agreed with the final observation made by the author, (indicating a change of mind) in that 'spelling is not so important'.
Words incorrectly spelled is either a sign of mental illness or personal carelessness. A slob by any other word, spells carelessly and dresses with equal abandon.
I'm sorry but this beautifully written opinion of yours is crap!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by ThreeDogs, posted 03-11-2008 11:50 AM ThreeDogs has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by RAZD, posted 03-11-2008 8:36 PM pelican has replied
 Message 64 by ThreeDogs, posted 03-12-2008 1:48 PM pelican has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 52 of 131 (459992)
03-11-2008 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by pelican
03-11-2008 8:25 PM


Re: comprehension of passage
Yes, I can see that. I am a music lover but not everyone is. We each have unique ways of comprehending and communicating. We only know what we know.
I had no trouble reading the passage and I assessed it point by point.
There is a difference between being able to read and being able to perceive the flow of the concepts.
It was more like sight-reading a brand new piece than playing an old favorite.
Ejnyo.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
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pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 53 of 131 (459996)
03-11-2008 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Brad McFall
03-11-2008 5:51 PM


Re: grammar vs thought
I said, "difficult concept" not none!!
Ok, you assumed there was no difficult concept, how does that affect the content of the passage?
The tighttrope is too thin then?
I assume this is a metaphor but what do you actually mean to say? In my opinion that is poor communication. Do you think I will waste my time trying to work out a possible insult?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Brad McFall, posted 03-11-2008 5:51 PM Brad McFall has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Brad McFall, posted 03-11-2008 10:14 PM pelican has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 54 of 131 (459999)
03-11-2008 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by RAZD
03-11-2008 8:36 PM


Re: comprehension of passage
Hello Razd, Let bygones be bygones.
There is a difference between being able to read and being able to perceive the flow of the concepts.
Yes, those are the main two points in the OP. The reading of the passage and the comprehension of the passage. It seems most had no trouble reading it which shows a high level of literacy skills but the comprehension? I don't know about that.

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Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 55 of 131 (460001)
03-11-2008 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by RAZD
03-11-2008 8:36 PM


Re: comprehension of passage
RAZD writes:
It was more like sight-reading a brand new piece than playing an old favorite.
You a musician? If so, what instrument?

Thou shalt accept Prometheus as thy savior for HE is the true light of Humanity and the World.

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Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 56 of 131 (460003)
03-11-2008 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by pelican
03-11-2008 8:53 PM


Re: comprehension of passage
pelican writes:
Yes, those are the main two points in the OP. The reading of the passage and the comprehension of the passage. It seems most had no trouble reading it which shows a high level of literacy skills but the comprehension? I don't know about that.
To add on to RAZD point about playing an old favorite versus playing a new piece of music for the first time.
Speaking as a musician, I really don't mind hearing people play wrong notes at all. In fact, I hear professionals play wrong notes all the time. For example, the following is a youtube recording of one of Horowitz's better performance of the Rachmaninoff's 3rd Concerto. At exactly 8:09, he played a B instead of an A with his right hand. Does that wrong note undermine his performance? Of course not. It was a splendid performance.
On the other hand, a few years back I attended a performance of Copland's Clarinet Concerto by Richard Stoltzman. Stoltzman must have had a bad day, because he squeaked probably more than a dozen times throughout the performance. Ok, I can tolerate a few squeaks because I understand that this is a problem for many clarinetists (especially when I am a clarinetist myself). But I can tolerate up to half a dozen or so squeaks before I mentally lose track of the flow of music and involuntarily start counting the squeaks.
Apply that to people's messages. There are only so many misspellings and grammatical errors before I lose track of what the writer is trying to convey and involuntarily focus on the errors.
Edited by True Believer, : No reason given.

Thou shalt accept Prometheus as thy savior for HE is the true light of Humanity and the World.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by pelican, posted 03-11-2008 8:53 PM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by pelican, posted 03-11-2008 10:29 PM Taz has replied

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5032 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 57 of 131 (460005)
03-11-2008 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by pelican
03-11-2008 8:46 PM


Re: grammar vs thought
Well, I am sorry you continue to feel this way.
If you know anything about my own postings on EVC you will know or could hear from others here that I often to do not use proper English. I could but I do not think this affects my communication when it comes to what matters.
So, I really do not see why or how you, for a third time took the bait and continued to not accentuate the postive.
I used "ttrope" for either trope or rope but you bit. Sorry for that because really I was trying to agree pretty much with you.
This shows why sometimes it IS better to spell, and punctuate, and use grammar correctly since communication down under apparently staid, well stale and burnt.
Direct measurement of attentional dwell time in human vision
quote:
IN vision, attentional limitations are reflected in interference or reduced accuracy when two objects must be identified at once in a brief display1,2. In our experiments a brief temporal separation was introduced between the two objects to be identified. We measured how long the first object continued to interfere with the second, and hence the time course of the first object's attentional demand. According to conventional serial models, attention is assigned rapidly to one object after another, with a dwell time of only a few dozen milliseconds per item3,4. But we report here that interference lasts for several hundred milliseconds”an order of magnitude more than the prediction of conventional models. We suggest that visual attention is not a high-speed switching mecha-nism, but a sustained state during which relevant objects become available to influence behaviour. This conclusion is consistent with recent physiological results in the monkey5.
Otherwise, perhaps you could of seen what I did.
Poincare used the word pasigraphy against Russell but to no avail. That was not in the passage nor were their thoughts that extend beyond realtively "brief" dwellings on time. But if it was not English I might have had a block as I do when I try to program something for which I am not prepared with the technique ahead of time. When the rest of the word is not a mess, memory can substitie for collision in our brains.
Edited by Brad McFall, : No reason given.
Edited by Brad McFall, : link

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 62 by pelican, posted 03-12-2008 1:03 AM Brad McFall has replied
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pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 58 of 131 (460008)
03-11-2008 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Taz
03-11-2008 9:39 PM


Re: comprehension of passage
On the other hand, a few years back I attended a performance of Copland's Clarinet Concerto by Richard Stoltzman. Stoltzman must have had a bad day, because he squeaked probably more than a dozen times throughout the performance. Ok, I can tolerate a few squeaks because I understand that this is a problem for many clarinetists (especially when I am a clarinetist myself). But I can tolerate up to half a dozen or so squeaks before I mentally lose track of the flow of music and involuntarily start counting the squeaks.
I expect you had higher expectations than were delivered and rightly so, as I expect they were paid professionals. However, listening and reading are entirely different. A person with less literacy skills may have a fantasic idea that is dismissed because of a few 'squeaks'.
The message does not have to be correctly spelled and does not need to flow like a musical composition. It just needs to be read, which doesn't seem to be a problem for the literary skilled, and has to have a point, which frankly most have missed in this thread. How do you actually comprehend the point(s) of the passage?
Apply that to people's messages. There are only so many misspellings and grammatical errors before I lose track of what the writer is trying to convey and involuntarily focus on the errors
It may be involuntary but you can't hold others responsible for your lack of concentration.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Taz, posted 03-11-2008 9:39 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Taz, posted 03-11-2008 10:54 PM pelican has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 59 of 131 (460010)
03-11-2008 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by pelican
03-11-2008 10:29 PM


Re: comprehension of passage
pelican writes:
I expect you had higher expectations than were delivered and rightly so, as I expect they were paid professionals. However, listening and reading are entirely different. A person with less literacy skills may have a fantasic idea that is dismissed because of a few 'squeaks'.
Don't get me wrong. When I criticize people for their grammar and spelling, I only do it after I've made sure that they were fully capable of not making those errors. I'm not a monster.
The message does not have to be correctly spelled and does not need to flow like a musical composition. It just needs to be read, which doesn't seem to be a problem for the literary skilled, and has to have a point, which frankly most have missed in this thread. How do you actually comprehend the point(s) of the passage?
This is easier said than done for some of us. People like myself fully understand that some people are not that literarily gifted. I myself am not that literarily literary. I know, the word "literarily" doesn't exist
A while back, there was this guy that claimed to be a professional of some sort. Yet, he consistently made grammar and spelling errors. When I asked him about it, he told me that English was his second language and that his first language was Francais. I promptly apologized to him.
Again, I'm not a monster. I know my limitations, and I'm aware that other people have limitations of their own.
That said, there are people who purposely not pay attention to spelling and grammar. Most of the time, I just skip right over their posts.
It may be involuntary but you can't hold others responsible for your lack of concentration.
You're absolutely right, which is why I have repeatedly said that good spelling and good grammar is only a courtesy for those of us who aren't as literary as others. Remember that I still have trouble reading that jumbled paragraph of yours in the OP even though by now I know what it's suppose to say. There are at least some members here who are dyslexic and not paying attention to your spelling and grammar make their lives this much harder. Of course people can decide not to be courteous. It's their right.
I just want to add that in this post alone I went back 3 times to proof read before pressing the submit button.

Thou shalt accept Prometheus as thy savior for HE is the true light of Humanity and the World.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by pelican, posted 03-11-2008 10:29 PM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by pelican, posted 03-12-2008 1:28 AM Taz has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 60 of 131 (460013)
03-11-2008 11:12 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Brad McFall
03-11-2008 10:14 PM


Re: grammar vs thought
Brad McFall writes:
If you know anything about my own postings on EVC you will know or could hear from others here that I often to do not use proper English. I could but I do not think this affects my communication when it comes to what matters.
Brad, no offense, but just how many people do you think actually read your more cryptic posts? I'll be honest right here and say that I tend to skip right over them and look for summaries or responses by other people.
When it comes to what matters, don't you think it's kinda pointless if nobody could understand what the hell you're saying?
Here is an example. Suppose I find out that the end of the world comes next year unless everyone in the world turns gay. The message that really matters is "Hey people, we all need to turn gay so the world doesn't end next year." But since I'm in a state of panic, all I could say is "MUST TURN GAY MUST TURN GAY OR WE ALL DIE MUST TURN GAY!!!!!" Or I could be even more cryptic and say "hooga booga" repeatedly.
How on Earth can what really matters gets conveyed if nobody could understand what the hell I'm saying?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Brad McFall, posted 03-11-2008 10:14 PM Brad McFall has replied

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