Religion v Spirituality

Way to miss the point. No point in what? Debating?{ABE: I will read the rest of the thread and offer my commentary afterwards. I don't want to drag the thread back to a place where my comments don't evolve the discussion further.}Edited by Jaderis, : No reason given.

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"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London"Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea

How are they differentiated?The only reason I know that I feel hate towards someone is because of the physical reaction I get.The only reason I know that I feel love towards someone is because of the physical reaction i get.My "mind" might rationalize both of these emotions (as well as all of the others) and allow me to express them in words, but my body actually has a reaction (and cannot often be expressed in words).

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"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London"Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea

Exactly. I have tried to translate this wonder to theists many times, but have lacked the vocabulary to do so without letting their minds latch onto one loaded word.I find it numinous that I am made of stars. I find it numinous that every one of my ancestors has "made it." I find it numinous that I am here with my consciousness typing my words to you. But, why would I give the credit to some being for which there is no evidence for?It is numinous and awe inspiring, but it, also, just is. As the etching on the transformers of my childhood say "Pepper wuz here." What I do beyond that is up to me. And that is numinous.

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"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London"Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea

Um..the what? How is that different from the "supernatural?"Can you quantify the "natural" part of a person and then say that they have gone "super?" I agree with Mandela, but possibly in a different way than he did (I don't know I haven't been able to ask him).People have a problem with attributing their intelligence or their talent or their sense to themselves or sometimes even to their family or community. They instead attribute it to some invisible deity. They do not think highly of themselves (or those who have helped them). Or not "highly enough."They think that they would not have been able to achieve what they did without divine interference. I like to chalk it up to human ingenuity. We can always do better. And we will.We must think "highly" of ourselves.

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"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London"Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea

But you tried to separate the emotional from the physical.Just because you cannot describe the "sensation" in words does not mean that it is not a physical reaction.We can name it anything we want to. We can even pretend it (our rational reaction to it) is not there, but the physical reaction is there. That is how we know what we are feeling "emotionally."Otherwise, we are sociopaths, just going through the motions because we understand the actions and reasons behind the "emotion" but not actually feeling (physically) all of the reactions associated with the emotion.There is a physical response to every emotion. They can be explained by science but they cannot be separated.The problem with describing the emotion in words is not a problem of science, but of linguistics and individual talent.

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"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London"Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea

Why will it only concern the human race?What is so special about us?When will we all know it?

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"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London"Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea

Different from other beings' consciousness? How? How do you know? Mass consciousness? What does that mean? Like culturally, maybe? Migration of ideas, maybe? I'm sorry, but what does that mean? It looks like nonsense to me. As an example of what? Natural human imagination that is "super?" You mean, "look what we can can accomplish by traveling and exchanging ideas?" Are you saying that if we all put our minds together all at once we can create some kind of super-duper creative machine? Awesome. What, exactly, is "more than just the mind?" Why qualify "the mind" with "just?" Is your mind somehow not enough? I actually like my mind. What about you?Are you stuck on the whole "we only use 10% of our brains" thing?How do you propose that we use more? And what do we use it for? To feel more "spiritual" or to resolve unanswered scientific questions? Or to control our internal organs better? Or maybe to live longer? Um...yeah. But where do these things come from except from within ourselves? Are these things that you list objects that exist outside ourselves that we have to find? Congratulations. You are human.

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"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London"Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea

Sure it does, but it also implies invisible deities and anything that cannot be observed in the natural world. But, "genius" can be observed as a natural phenomenon and can be applied across many fields and have many definitions.How does "genius" apply to your definition of spirituality? No use? According to who? Can one believe themselves to be something they are not and then discover through the "failure" process who they are? (p.s. i have only watched the "audition" episodes of the second season of American Idol) Cannot confidence in one's abilities come along with recognizing one's weaknesses? Wanting to be "something" will likely carry you through a long process of finding out what that "something" is not. You're welcome. It's "true" for you, so what's with the "we?" Right. We all have complex emotional lives. We know that.What is the "whole consciousness?"How do you know that we are only "partly aware" of it?

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"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London"Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea

Jaderis Like what? Someone hitting my mother? That causes both an emotional reaction and a physical one that are inseparable. I feel "anger." I know that I feel "angry" because my temperature rises and adrenaline is pumped into my system (to put it crudely). That is how I "know" that I am "angry." If I didn't have this physical reaction I would not be "angry." What is an "emotional action?"How do you separate your emotions from your physical, bodily reactions, including the involuntary ones?I know I don't. I can control impulses that come about from strong emotions, but my body feels it just the same.What is an "emotion" but your body telling you that you feel it?It doesn't make any sense to have an "emotion" without being able to feel it.

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"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London"Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea

PS. Could you please answer the questions I asked of you?

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"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London"Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea