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Author Topic:   Ante-Diluvian Ecology
CTD
Member (Idle past 5900 days)
Posts: 253
Joined: 03-11-2007


Message 8 of 15 (456898)
02-20-2008 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Blue Jay
02-20-2008 12:57 AM


quote:
1. The bison is capable of defending itself against a tyrannosaur
2. The bison is capable of outrunning a tyrannosaur
3. The tyrannosaur did not prey on the bison
I'm not sure if I should comment, but I'll do it anyhow.
It is possible that the famed T-Rex might dine on bison. I find it odd that the more typical predator-prey relationships aren't mentioned. Is the wildebeast extinct due to the lion? Is the mosquito extinct due to the bat?
Bison in my grandfather's youth were quite numerous. When the herds combined during migration season, the resultant mass of the creatures spanned from horizon to horizon. I see no consideration that bison may have been too many to be eaten to extinction.
Neither do I see consideration of the common result of overpredation. Is it not possible for the numbers of prey creatures to be reduced to the point that their predators must find other food or starve? We know the dodo was an exception. If it wasn't, I don't think anyone would have ever much noticed the dodo.
Another possibility would be human intervention. Bison are the same kind of animal presently kept and protected by humans.
Neither would I dismiss your first hypothesis too quickly. Cattle of all kinds are prone to stampeding, and a creature as top-heavy as T-Rex, with so little capacity for gray matter could have a great deal of trouble keeping its balance if overrun. The wise Tyrannosaur might well choose not to take her chances around bison.
quote:
The interaction between wolf and Deinonychus would be much more difficult to explain, however, if the competitive exclusion principle is to be upheld.
That's a new one to me, that "competitive exclusion principle". I suggest it might stand a better chance if you apply it to a critter less versatile than the wolf has proven to be.
It's a nice coincidence that just yesterday I saw an evolutionist show about polar bears and grizzlies. They're the same kind of animal, but the polar bear's diet is entirely different. Polar bears have become totally carnivorous, and they pass right by edible plant life because they're no longer aware they can eat it. There's more, but I think one can readily see my point: life is generally capable of surviving under a variety of conditions, and few creatures are restricted to a narrow diet. Pandas and koalas are the only two that come to mind, but maybe I've got bears on the brain.
I do not envy you the argument you've undertaken. I was going to suggest that scanty knowledge about the dinosaurs will make your task highly speculative and you might want to consider creatures we know about that compete for resources. Then I realized the ones we know about haven't driven each other extinct, so they're unsuitable.
I am keenly curious about the pre-flood world, so I can't say I'm sorry this topic came up. Of course I prefer ante-diluvian discussions to anti-diluvian, but one can't always be picky.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Blue Jay, posted 02-20-2008 12:57 AM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Blue Jay, posted 02-21-2008 1:24 PM CTD has replied

  
CTD
Member (Idle past 5900 days)
Posts: 253
Joined: 03-11-2007


Message 14 of 15 (457273)
02-22-2008 5:07 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Blue Jay
02-21-2008 1:24 PM


quote:
This is probably a legitimate argument. However, stampeding is a form of running away, not standing to fight. Stampeding can also be used by predators like wolves and lions as a method of identifying weak animals, so it may, in fact, increase the effectiveness of predation.
Tell it to the jokers who travel to Spain to run "with" the bulls.
When I was young, I read about how bison deal with rattlesnakes. The largest members of the herd gather together and the rest of the herd clears out. Then the big ones run the reptile down together. That's the case if the snake is discovered when the herd's just grazing. A moving herd takes little notice and doesn't leave many scraps behind for the birds.
You're thinking in binary "fight or flight" terms. For purposes of a private exercise in logic this may serve, but I remain unconvinced. Even if a stampede starts as a "flight" response, it can end up going any direction if not guided. I'm no cowboy, so I don't know how much skill may or may not be involved.
As for ante-diluvian wolves lacking versatility, I don't follow. These are the ancestors of foxes, coyotes, and every other type of dog. They're not very restricted when it comes to diet or habitat.
Your reasoning seems to rule out the survival of many prey animals. How can wild sheep survive when they have wolves & big cats in the neighborhood?
Shoot, sheep are so problematic conceptually I checked to see if there still are wild sheep. Looks like there are. http://www.sciencedaily.com/...ases/2007/06/070620154911.htm
http://www.bighorninstitute.org/wildsheep.htm

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Blue Jay, posted 02-21-2008 1:24 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Blue Jay, posted 02-23-2008 10:30 PM CTD has not replied

  
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