Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,808 Year: 3,065/9,624 Month: 910/1,588 Week: 93/223 Day: 4/17 Hour: 1/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Changes at EvC Forum
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 61 of 191 (451161)
01-26-2008 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Buzsaw
01-26-2008 2:59 PM


Re: Re-Uproar
Hi Buzz,
Buzzsaw2. I'm glad Admin has more patience than you're advocating. Two of the biggies for Christians is longsuffering and patience.
You don't think Percy has been long-suffering putting up with where we carried his baby in the last couple of months?
He didn't want to interfere, but it reached a point he had to do something or shut it down. He did what he thought was best.
Buzz you run a business. You have to make some hard decisions sometimes. Put yourself in Percy's position. Somebody has to be the final authority.
Whether I agree with Percy or not is not the question. The decision has been made. We have contributed our ideas on what we would like to see going forward. Percy has to sort some things out and make some long term decisions.
How can he concentrate on making a proper decision, when he is continually being bombarded with members disgust with what he has done. Percy can not change what has been done. He can modify it, but he can not change it.
But any modification has to be his decision.
Have fun,
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Buzsaw, posted 01-26-2008 2:59 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Buzsaw, posted 01-26-2008 3:39 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 74 by nator, posted 01-26-2008 6:00 PM ICANT has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 62 of 191 (451164)
01-26-2008 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Tanypteryx
01-26-2008 2:56 PM


Re: Brief Answers
Tanypterix writes:
Please try to find some way to bring the Old Timers back.....I need them. You don't want to see a grown man cry do you?
1. Admin wisely advocates revision.
2. Admin is in a position to assess the conduct of his constituency relative to tolerancy for the good of the site as he, the owner sees it.
3. Perhaps it behooves those who've gone and those of us who remain
to examine ourselves as to how we fit into Admins program. If one hopes to return, one might consider the possible need to adjust ones MO. If one hopes to remain one also might consider the possible need to adjust one's MO.
Having said the above, I don't think Admin expects all to do right always or to compromise their ideological position, but to work at keeping the peace and the site humming along nicely for the good of all.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-26-2008 2:56 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by arachnophilia, posted 01-26-2008 11:05 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 191 (451167)
01-26-2008 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by ICANT
01-26-2008 3:24 PM


Re: Re-Uproar
ICANT writes:
You don't think Percy has been long-suffering putting up with where we carried his baby in the last couple of months?
Go back, slow down and read thoughtfully what I said, ICANT. I thought the implication I conveyed was that Admin has indeed been longsuffering and patient, more so than you were advocating by shutting down and out.
My understanding of your statements was that you would not have done as Admin did if you were in his position.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by ICANT, posted 01-26-2008 3:24 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by ICANT, posted 01-26-2008 3:52 PM Buzsaw has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 64 of 191 (451168)
01-26-2008 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by arachnophilia
01-26-2008 2:50 PM


Re: Re-Uproar
Hi arach,
arachnophilia writes:
that doesn't mean that we must all blindly agree with every action the owner of the site does.
arach I ran a business for 40 years. Nobody told me in 40 years how to run my business. If it was an employee he was informed he was and employee and if he did not agree with the way I did things he could go elsewhere. The second time he told me how to run my business he was looking for a job.
No you do not have to agree with anything anyone does. But you don't go into a mans house and tell him how to run it. You do not tell another man how to run his business.
Some have made some good suggestions. That is fine.
Some have made demands on Percy. Demands is telling him how to run his business.
That is unacceptable behaviour period.
Many probably did not realize that what they were and are saying comes over as demands but go back and read them.
Nem demanded to be banned. All he had to do was delete the link on the desktop.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by arachnophilia, posted 01-26-2008 2:50 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by anglagard, posted 01-26-2008 3:58 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 69 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-26-2008 4:32 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 84 by arachnophilia, posted 01-26-2008 11:13 PM ICANT has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 65 of 191 (451169)
01-26-2008 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Buzsaw
01-26-2008 3:39 PM


Re: Re-Uproar
Hi Buzz,
Buzzsaw writes:
shutting down and out.
Buzz if you noticed my shutting down and out was if I read one more post telling me how to run my business I would pull the plug.
My idea is the decision has been made.
Lets support Percy instead of trying to tear him apart. I think he is in bad enough shape with his baby in the condition she is in at the moment. Without more salt being poured in the wound.
We have made our suggestions.
Percy needs time to formulate a plan for going forward from this day.
He has already made some and I am sure more are in the works.
How can that happen if the house is still burning down.
We need to:
Put the fire out.
Get back on the boards and give each other fits.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Buzsaw, posted 01-26-2008 3:39 PM Buzsaw has not replied

anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 66 of 191 (451170)
01-26-2008 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by ICANT
01-26-2008 3:39 PM


Re: Re-Uproar
ICANT writes:
arach I ran a business for 40 years. Nobody told me in 40 years how to run my business. If it was an employee he was informed he was and employee and if he did not agree with the way I did things he could go elsewhere. The second time he told me how to run my business he was looking for a job.
I run a library system that covers 13 counties for a junior college and have done so for 8 years, which considering that both libraries and this website are involved with providing information, is probably a lot more relevant.
I always seriously consider any realistic suggestion from my subordinates, and if an improvement, implement and give credit where it is due. If I acted as an authoritarian, rather than collegially, I would not be in the position I am in today.
So it depends upon the business, one size does not fit all.

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon
The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by ICANT, posted 01-26-2008 3:39 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by ICANT, posted 01-26-2008 4:07 PM anglagard has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 67 of 191 (451174)
01-26-2008 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by anglagard
01-26-2008 3:58 PM


Re: Re-Uproar
Hi anglagard,
anglagard writes:
So it depends upon the business, one size does not fit all.
Do you own the library?
By subordinates I will assume you are talking about employees that get paid by the same people you do.
But what if someone off the street comes in and starts to tell you how to run the libarary?
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by anglagard, posted 01-26-2008 3:58 PM anglagard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by anglagard, posted 01-26-2008 4:15 PM ICANT has not replied

anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 68 of 191 (451178)
01-26-2008 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by ICANT
01-26-2008 4:07 PM


Re: Re-Uproar
ICANT writes:
But what if someone off the street comes in and starts to tell you how to run the libarary?
As I already stated in regard to subordinates, I take all constructive suggestions seriously. Are you saying that a business should not listen to it's customers? If so, I think you have a lot more to learn despite any 63 years.

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon
The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by ICANT, posted 01-26-2008 4:07 PM ICANT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by arachnophilia, posted 01-26-2008 11:18 PM anglagard has not replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 69 of 191 (451182)
01-26-2008 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by ICANT
01-26-2008 3:39 PM


Re: Re-Uproar
I ran a business for 40 years. Nobody told me in 40 years how to run my business. If it was an employee he was informed he was and employee and if he did not agree with the way I did things he could go elsewhere. The second time he told me how to run my business he was looking for a job.
Some employers seek feedback from their employees, since a business is dependent upon your customers and your employees. A good employer would do that, and good employees would treat their employer with the respect they deserve.
Nem demanded to be banned.
No, he asked who wanted to leave in protest. I manned up and said something because as the adage goes, I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees. What I did demand was that I not be censored and to have people who were undeservedly banned reinstated.
Lets also not forget that demands have been made against me, and apparently, me alone -- namely that I be censored. Just because you own a business, ICANT, doesn't mean that people's rights are taken away. There is a checks and balance system in the United States. Its that way for a reason -- so that both employer and employees are protected equally.
Now, for the sake of compromise, to make all parties happy, I have chosen to censor myself. Your hard-nosed, do as I say, not as I do approach will not get your point across as well as coming to amicable decisions.
Every one on here has thanked Percy for the site. Every one here has tried to come to a resolution. Every one here has acknowledged that this is ultimately his decision. So I'm unclear on where we are being ungrateful.
All he had to do was delete the link on the desktop.
Yes, I could inactivate myself right now. But I might as well let the cat out of the bag concerning my strategy.
I don't want to leave. However, I really do feel that the infamous EvC Kristallnacht was unwarranted. That's my opinion and I'm entitled to it. If I thought that Percy were so unreasonable to suffer any dissent, I wouldn't bother even talking to him about it. Since I think I have a pretty good idea of his character, I know very well that he is more than capable of doing the right thing. In fact, this little debacle is a Dr. Jeckle/Mr. Hyde scenario. I'm actually in shock because I've never seen it before. That's how highly I think of him.
Why I haven't just inactivated myself is because I see some progress being made. Emotions have settled down a little, and I have hope that a resolution can be made. The reason why I wanted martyrdom was that I saw it as being the best way to save the lot of them. I wanted the big red dot hovering above my name so that every one who comes in here would think twice about what they are getting in to. Remember, we have anywhere between 200-400 lurkers a day! They see what's going on.
And look what is happening... Everyone is now afraid to speak their mind. They are terrified that they will get the boot. Can't have a debate forum if every one is afraid to debate, right?
But after listening to many level-headed people about it, such as Buzsaw, GDR, and Arach, my hard-nosed approach may be equally as pigheaded as yours (no offense). So I now am opting for quiet negotiations with Percy to reach an amicable decision. Yes, its ultimately up to him, but I think he is a reasonable enough man to listen to other opinions before he hammers the nails in the coffin.
But make no mistake, if it comes down to it, I will inactivate myself -- which, not to toot my horn, would upset a great many people. Even my enemies would be disappointed.

“There is something which unites magic and applied science while separating both from the 'wisdom' of earlier ages. For the wise men of old the cardinal problem had been how to conform the soul to objective reality, and the solution had been knowledge, self-discipline, and virtue. For magic and applied science alike the problem is how to subdue reality to the wishes of men: the solution is a technique; and both, in the practice of this technique, are ready to do things hitherto regarded as disgusting and impious" -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by ICANT, posted 01-26-2008 3:39 PM ICANT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Buzsaw, posted 01-26-2008 5:17 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 70 of 191 (451187)
01-26-2008 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Hyroglyphx
01-26-2008 4:32 PM


Re: Re-Uproar
NJ writes:
But make no mistake, if it comes down to it, I will inactivate myself -- which, not to toot my horn, would upset a great many people. Even my enemies would be disappointed.
My heart sank when it looked as though you were a goner. Many of us do indeed value your input. It appears that Admin concurs.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-26-2008 4:32 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-26-2008 6:59 PM Buzsaw has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 71 of 191 (451192)
01-26-2008 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Admin
01-25-2008 6:48 PM


Re: Brief Answers
quote:
Things are simpler now. I've removed those who I felt were the most divisive elements and also those who requested it. For those of you for whom the changes and suspensions are truly unendurable then there are other alternative than just excoriating me, which won't do anything except make me feel bad.
You should feel bad, because banning people from a debate board for being divisive is a pretty nonsensical thing to do.
And I'm not surprised that people like Buzsaw, ICANT, and to some extent, Moose, would be in support of your actions.
They all lean towards the dictatorial, Authoritarian mindset, and now it seems that you have embraced this way of solving problems as well.
That, frankly, sucks.
Edited by nator, : No reason given.
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Admin, posted 01-25-2008 6:48 PM Admin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Buzsaw, posted 01-26-2008 6:11 PM nator has replied
 Message 76 by anglagard, posted 01-26-2008 6:31 PM nator has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 72 of 191 (451195)
01-26-2008 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by ICANT
01-26-2008 2:20 PM


Re: Brief Answers
quote:
I think the first thing we need to do is shut up.
I think that is absolutely the last thing we should do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by ICANT, posted 01-26-2008 2:20 PM ICANT has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 73 of 191 (451198)
01-26-2008 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by ICANT
01-26-2008 2:36 PM


Re: Re-Uproar
quote:
You are a bunch of the most ungrateful people I have ever seen in my entire 68 years of life.
Percy has provided us a place to air our views free of charge.
He won't take money. We've offered.
quote:
I have enjoyed being able to be a part of EvC.
I know to most I have some very off beat views about everything.
This is the only place I have ever found that I can really express them and get somebody to make me question them and for that I am forever grateful.
What you don't seem to understand is that what Percy has done with his mass purge of "undesireables" critical of him is made this place less of a place that welcomes freedom of expression.
quote:
Now for EvC's sake shut up and let Percy do his job.
It is for EvC's sake that we are speaking up.
quote:
Just so you know if I was in his position and I saw one more negative remark of any kind concerning the decisions that have been made I would shut this site down so fast your computers might crash because of it.
Right, becasue you don't really believe in freedom of expression.
At least, not enough to tolerate criticism of your own actions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by ICANT, posted 01-26-2008 2:36 PM ICANT has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 74 of 191 (451199)
01-26-2008 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by ICANT
01-26-2008 3:24 PM


Re: Re-Uproar
quote:
He did what he thought was best.
And banning lots of people for apparently no good reason was a bad decision.
It seriously damaged the integrity of this place.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by ICANT, posted 01-26-2008 3:24 PM ICANT has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 191 (451201)
01-26-2008 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by nator
01-26-2008 5:35 PM


Re: Brief Answers
nator writes:
They all lean towards the dictatorial, Authoritarian mindset, and now it seems that you have embraced this way of solving problems as well.
Nator you have absolutely no evidence supportive of your charges.
True or false: EvC needed overhauling/revision.
True or false: Changes could perhaps involve posters in view of the owner/operator's goals.
True or false: The people you cited as dictatorial had no authority to effect the changes
True or false: The people you cited did not advocate suspension of anyone. Most if not all advocated reinstatement.
Please, Nator, don't become part of the problem Admin's trying to fix.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by nator, posted 01-26-2008 5:35 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by nator, posted 01-26-2008 6:44 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024