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Author Topic:   Changes at EvC Forum
Vacate
Member (Idle past 4600 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 10-01-2006


Message 46 of 191 (451127)
01-26-2008 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Quetzal
01-26-2008 9:30 AM


Re: Brief Answers
Its interesting to note that while wishing to defend those that have been suspended I also find myself wanting to keep silent based upon the respect I have built up for you Percy. I respect that you want to preserve the higher standards that places this site above and beyond any other that I have encountered. There is a wealth of knowledge on this site that should continue to be available, that knowledge however is based upon its membership and their contributions. Browsing through the “Posts of the Month” last night confirmed to me just how much knowledge was lost during this restructuring.
I agree that you should “stay the course”, and I will support your attempts to keep this site from becoming irrelevant. I am simply asking you to reconsider the bans that took place during this change.
we had become a site dominated by old-timers constantly in battle with old protagonists
While browsing through the posts of the month I found it apparent that many of those old timers have a way with words that few people can ever hope to attain. Yes, it is the same battle since day one but often they find a new way to convey an old idea that can break down walls.
Some of those old timers are now gone, and I find it very disheartening that I may never again have the privilege to get a peek inside those minds. Please Percy; arachnophilia and Quetzal are right - we as a community need those old timers back.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Quetzal, posted 01-26-2008 9:30 AM Quetzal has not replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 191 (451128)
01-26-2008 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Admin
01-25-2008 6:48 PM


Re: Brief Answers
the board will no longer be entertaining member/moderator discussion threads. The moderation threads are clear evidence that it rarely resolves anything, and it turns moderators into targets.
I disagree. Let me lay out a plan for your (dis)approval and tell me what you think:
I think the Moderator forum was a great idea. Moderators were hand picked because they are supposed to embody the kind of impartiality that is required, regardless of how they may personally feel about a matter. And I thought we had a pretty good team that didn't exploit their position.
But not everyone is a Moderator. Regardless, they deserve to have a voice to make an appeal as a test for equity since Moderators are not infallible. So while the Moderator may have the final say, and I believe they reserve that right, the People still have a right to voice their concerns to a Moderator which might allow the Moderator to see things from another angle. Stranger things have happened, I'm sure.
The haggling that went on between Rrhain and several Moderators was a fiasco and should have been cut off at the knees before it spiraled out of control. Rrhain made his plea. A response was made. It should have ended there. But it didn't. An exchange went on for several pages.
So how do we get around that?
If Admins are Justices, then you are the Chief Justice of the Supreme EvC court. If ever there seems to be a conflict between the Admins and members, you can step in.
As well, we can confer as a Body in the Admin forum (aka: the smoked-filled room) as we had been doing to be as fair and as impartial as we can be. Perhaps we can even vote. On a deadlock situation between Admins, you will have the final authority. Or you can leave it to our discretion so as not to step on anyone's toes.
Things will not always go 100%. But we are now trading that imperfection for a more imperfect Totalitarian-style moderation.
I regret taking sudden action, but EvC Forum had become a Gordian Knot of moderators, threads, forums and processes inching inexorably into chaos. The gay issues debacle was just the final straw.
I think I can speak on behalf of all the former moderators and members alike -- we just don't see it the way you do. What chaos are you referring to that was so bad that it called for such a radical change?
Things are simpler now. I've removed those who I felt were the most divisive elements and also those who requested it.
Then why am I still here?
I think you are one of the people that understand my arguments -- that my intent is not to offend, but that I at times get my point across with not enough tact. I am aware that I could use more tact, and have sought to fix that. I am trying to do my part by taking responsibility for my actions, to apologize to those whom I've offended, and am attempting to reconcile. But others would even disagree with that. Some would say that I am divisive. Some have said that I'm evil and have refused to accept my apology even after demanding it from me. From an outside perspective, I do stir up a lot of dissension wherever I go. After all, they aren't arguing in a vacuum, they are arguing with me.
Besides, I can think of truly divisive, disruptive, mean-spirited people here at EvC that still remain who I wouldn't mind seeing them take a permanent vacation. I won't name names. I'm just wondering, if you're trying to clean up this one-horse town, why they still remain.
And then there is the matter that I did request to be suspended. I think I can speak for everyone when I say they are equally mystified as me as to how I've managed to escape the sword, but those making innocuous comments were strung up and hung to dry.
I'm going to speak as frankly as I can without being disrespectful to the fact that this is your baby, your site, your money, your time, your forum, your rules. We all know that, and as, Omni or Quetzal said, thanks for letting us play in your sandbox. You have so much to be proud of. This forum really is the best I've ever seen -- down to the format, to the rules, to the moderation, to the content, to the intellect of the members that it draws, etc, etc, etc. I could go on and on with praises.
But now this threatens it all. We all see the writing on the wall.
For those of you for whom the changes and suspensions are truly unendurable then there are other alternative than just excoriating me, which won't do anything except make me feel bad. I am resolved to stay the course I have chosen. I've done nothing to you, and the Internet is a big place with many other sites.
There is a difference between feeling proud of an accomplishment, and feeling pride over a decision to save face. I hope you aren't going to stay the course over an issue because of pride. No one is trying to make you feel bad. We just want our EvC back, and the members that helped make it what it is. I agree some changes need to be made. I agree that the interest in the site has gone down. If you started posting the statistics like you once did, I'm sure we would all see that trend manifest.
But we can iron out the kinks. Don't isolate yourself from us, Percy. You're one of us. Just don't forget that we're one of you too.
Because if Jar, brenna, iceage, sidelined, Ringo, NWR, Omni, etc don't come back, then I would rather join them.
Now, you know that's saying a lot! Most of those people don't get along with me and they tend to annoy me with an infernal annoyance. But dammit, they're my EvC brothers and sisters, all our faults aside! Its not that I desire to leave, but I have to stand up for the principle of it.
Woe to the people who are tip-toeing on eggshells around the situation, frightened to rock the boat, instead of standing with me. You all know who you are. Let your conscience devour you.
Please, reconsider, Percy.
Edited by Nemesis Juggernaut, : typo

“There is something which unites magic and applied science while separating both from the 'wisdom' of earlier ages. For the wise men of old the cardinal problem had been how to conform the soul to objective reality, and the solution had been knowledge, self-discipline, and virtue. For magic and applied science alike the problem is how to subdue reality to the wishes of men: the solution is a technique; and both, in the practice of this technique, are ready to do things hitherto regarded as disgusting and impious" -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Admin, posted 01-25-2008 6:48 PM Admin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by anglagard, posted 01-26-2008 2:04 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 54 by ICANT, posted 01-26-2008 2:20 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 48 of 191 (451133)
01-26-2008 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Buzsaw
01-25-2008 10:51 AM


Re: NWR Suspension
Buzsaw writes:
NWR did not violate the instructions set forth in your OP.
I agree with you completely. What is this problem with NWR getting suspended for following the rules? IIRC he was IMO wrongly punished in the last great purge where faith was banned.
I just don't understand.

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon
The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Buzsaw, posted 01-25-2008 10:51 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 191 (451134)
01-26-2008 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by PaulK
01-26-2008 11:26 AM


Re: Brief Answers
Strongly seconded

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by PaulK, posted 01-26-2008 11:26 AM PaulK has not replied

anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 50 of 191 (451137)
01-26-2008 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Hyroglyphx
01-26-2008 1:11 PM


Re: Brief Answers
NJ writes:
Woe to the people who are tip-toeing on eggshells around the situation, frightened to rock the boat, instead of standing with me. You all know who you are. Let your conscience devour you.
Sorry NJ, have flu.
So let me state for the record, I agree with you, Taz, Arachnophilia, Rick JB, Buzsaw, Phat, Granny magda, Nator, Quetzal, and Vacate, the suspensions of jar, brenna, iceage, sidelined, Ringo, NWR, Omni, etc. should be reconsidered.
IMO, which is worth nothing, is to make a general amnesty of all former members (including Faith and Randman) not involved with spam, truly start from scratch, then see if they can follow the new or modified rules.
But as pointed out, it's not my site.
I have read the reasoning behind the need for change and agree to some extent. I just don't understand the purge of NWR and resulting permanent suspensions of those who protested what IMO was unfair treatment.
OK, now my opinion is part of the public record, so there NJ.

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon
The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-26-2008 1:11 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by bluescat48, posted 01-26-2008 2:10 PM anglagard has not replied
 Message 52 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-26-2008 2:11 PM anglagard has not replied
 Message 58 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-26-2008 2:56 PM anglagard has not replied

bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 51 of 191 (451138)
01-26-2008 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by anglagard
01-26-2008 2:04 PM


Re: Brief Answers
anglagard
So let me state for the record, I agree with you, Taz, Arachnophilia, Rick JB, Buzsaw, Phat, Granny magda, Nator, Quetzal, and Vacate, the suspensions of jar, brenna, iceage, sidelined, Ringo, NWR, Omni, etc. should be reconsidered.
IMO, which is worth nothing, is to make a general amnesty of all former members (including Faith and Randman) not involved with spam, truly start from scratch, then see if they can follow the new or modified rules.
I agree

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by anglagard, posted 01-26-2008 2:04 PM anglagard has not replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 191 (451139)
01-26-2008 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by anglagard
01-26-2008 2:04 PM


Re: Brief Answers
Sorry NJ, have flu.
You know, one year Michael Jordan had the flu and still went out there and won the championship. I'm just sayin'....
Sorry you don't feel well buddy. Seems the whole country is sick, infected, and contagious.
So let me state for the record, I agree with you, Taz, Arachnophilia, Rick JB, Buzsaw, Phat, Granny magda, Nator, Quetzal, and Vacate, the suspensions of jar, brenna, iceage, sidelined, Ringo, NWR, Omni, etc. should be reconsidered.
Yes, I hope that he does reconsider it.
OK, now my opinion is part of the public record, so there NJ.
Thank you for your support.

“There is something which unites magic and applied science while separating both from the 'wisdom' of earlier ages. For the wise men of old the cardinal problem had been how to conform the soul to objective reality, and the solution had been knowledge, self-discipline, and virtue. For magic and applied science alike the problem is how to subdue reality to the wishes of men: the solution is a technique; and both, in the practice of this technique, are ready to do things hitherto regarded as disgusting and impious" -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by anglagard, posted 01-26-2008 2:04 PM anglagard has not replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 53 of 191 (451142)
01-26-2008 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Quetzal
01-26-2008 9:30 AM


Re: Brief Answers
Call me a wimp if you wish, but I literally felt significant trepidation about posting anything, to any thread following this extinction sweep. I still do.
As do I.
Including, obviously, an amnesty for those whose knee-jerk reaction to the initial suspensions was to request their own.
Especially considering that none of them had the opportunity to "recant", as Nem did. He had that opportunity only because GDR insisted on drawing him out.
Who knows who would have taken a similar opportunity given the chance?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Quetzal, posted 01-26-2008 9:30 AM Quetzal has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by arachnophilia, posted 01-26-2008 2:32 PM molbiogirl has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 54 of 191 (451144)
01-26-2008 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Hyroglyphx
01-26-2008 1:11 PM


Re: Brief Answers
Hi Nem,
Nemesis Juggernaut writes:
Then why am I still here? [
Probably because you logged in.
And found out you had not been banned.
All joking aside WE were getting pretty carried away.
sidelied and myself got so far off topic in one thread there was no way we could have got back to the topic. AdminPD issued us a warning but it had come about 3 pages of posts too late. We did not post after the warning. But we had been allowed to go to long. We were then suspended for a period of time. Neither of us complained. Why did we not complain? Because we were guilty.
We were having a good discussion, my education was increasing but we were doing it in the wrong place.
Nem what I am saying is that we had all began to take things for granted and being in the position I am in, I can feel for Percy. He wanted us to have a good time and learn, and we took advantage of him. Percy let us go too far and the drastic action he took was necessary. Then everybody questioned his authority, just be glad I was not in his position. I think he was very lenient.
For EvC to survive and reach Percy's goals he has to decide where he wants it to go. He made the decision things had to change. Many disagreed with him. But somebody has to make the decisions. I ran a business for some 40 years sometimes you have to make decisions that maybe you don't even like but you have no choice. I feel Percy was in that position and I can feel his pain. But I can't help him as it must be his decision.
What can we do to help now that we find ourselves and EvC in the position we are in?
I think the first thing we need to do is shut up.
Let Percy decide where he wants his forum to go and the best way to achieve that goal.
Many of us have given him our ideas. That is great.
But now it is time for us to get back in the different topics and do what we joined this site to do.
Argue with one another about what we believe to be the truth.
Having butted heads with Percy in several different topics I believe Percy will get it right if we will let him.
Lets get out there and have fun, life is too short for anything else.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-26-2008 1:11 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by nator, posted 01-26-2008 5:51 PM ICANT has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 55 of 191 (451149)
01-26-2008 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by molbiogirl
01-26-2008 2:13 PM


Re: Brief Answers
Especially considering that none of them had the opportunity to "recant", as Nem did. He had that opportunity only because GDR insisted on drawing him out.
Who knows who would have taken a similar opportunity given the chance?
i must say, i had considered forum-martyrdom as an option, purely out of frustration. i decided that staying and making noise (at the risk of martyrdom) was a more effective option. i'm sure that people like ringo would probably like to come back under the right circumstances.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by molbiogirl, posted 01-26-2008 2:13 PM molbiogirl has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 56 of 191 (451150)
01-26-2008 2:36 PM


Re-Uproar
Everybody,
Enough is Enough.
If I was Percy I would pull the plug and go fishing.
You are a bunch of the most ungrateful people I have ever seen in my entire 68 years of life.
Percy has provided us a place to air our views free of charge.
I have enjoyed being able to be a part of EvC.
I know to most I have some very off beat views about everything.
This is the only place I have ever found that I can really express them and get somebody to make me question them and for that I am forever grateful.
Now for EvC's sake shut up and let Percy do his job.
Just so you know if I was in his position and I saw one more negative remark of any kind concerning the decisions that have been made I would shut this site down so fast your computers might crash because of it.
End of rant.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by arachnophilia, posted 01-26-2008 2:50 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 59 by Buzsaw, posted 01-26-2008 2:59 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 73 by nator, posted 01-26-2008 5:56 PM ICANT has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 57 of 191 (451151)
01-26-2008 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by ICANT
01-26-2008 2:36 PM


Re: Re-Uproar
You are a bunch of the most ungrateful people I have ever seen in my entire 68 years of life.
on the contrary, we are all very grateful for the opportunity we've been given these last few years. that doesn't mean that we must all blindly agree with every action the owner of the site does. we want to see this site continue to be great.
Just so you know if I was in his position and I saw one more negative remark of any kind concerning the decisions that have been made I would shut this site down so fast your computers might crash because of it.
and that is precisely what makes EvC different than creationist-run boards: fair moderation specifically in the ability to debate moderation decisions with the moderators. to see this suddenly change, and many of our friends banned because they dared to continue this fundamental principle of forum life here... well, it's startling, to say the least. it runs contrary to everything we were grateful for. and many of us are left in an odd position. do we continue to say what we think in favor of justice? do we shut up out of fear or respect for percy? do we go home and forget about this place in disappointment?
This is the only place I have ever found that I can really express them and get somebody to make me question them and for that I am forever grateful.
but how can we truly express yourselves and feel secure in that expression if saying certain things, or debating certain topics result in bans without any good reason or even warning? you'll see some people above have already noted that they don't even feel like posting anymore -- this is why.
Edited by arachnophilia, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by ICANT, posted 01-26-2008 2:36 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by ICANT, posted 01-26-2008 3:39 PM arachnophilia has replied

Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 58 of 191 (451152)
01-26-2008 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by anglagard
01-26-2008 2:04 PM


Re: Brief Answers
anglagard writes:
So let me state for the record, I agree with you, Taz, Arachnophilia, Rick JB, Buzsaw, Phat, Granny magda, Nator, Quetzal, and Vacate, the suspensions of jar, brenna, iceage, sidelined, Ringo, NWR, Omni, etc. should be reconsidered.
I agree also. I am not a very active member, but I have been activily lurking, reading and learning here for several years. During the past several months this incredible forum has been especially important to me because it is one of the few enjoyable activities I have due to illness.
Percy, thank you for creating and maintaining the EvC Forum and all the hard work that has gone into it. It is truly the best debate/discussion forum on the web!
Please try to find some way to bring the Old Timers back.....I need them. You don't want to see a grown man cry do you?

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
You can't build a Time Machine without Weird Optics -- S. Valley

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by anglagard, posted 01-26-2008 2:04 PM anglagard has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Buzsaw, posted 01-26-2008 3:27 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 191 (451154)
01-26-2008 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by ICANT
01-26-2008 2:36 PM


Re: Re-Uproar
1. Don't lump us all into uproaring complainers. A lot of what's going on here is sorting out, assessment, constructive criticism, helpful advice and questions so as for hierarchy and constituency to effect reconciliation and revision.
2. I'm glad Admin has more patience than you're advocating. Two of the biggies for Christians is longsuffering and patience.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by ICANT, posted 01-26-2008 2:36 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by arachnophilia, posted 01-26-2008 3:04 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 61 by ICANT, posted 01-26-2008 3:24 PM Buzsaw has replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 60 of 191 (451156)
01-26-2008 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Buzsaw
01-26-2008 2:59 PM


Re: Uproar
2. I'm glad Admin has more patience than you're advocating. Two of the biggies for Christians is longsuffering and patience.
indeed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Buzsaw, posted 01-26-2008 2:59 PM Buzsaw has not replied

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