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Author Topic:   Changes at EvC Forum
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5871 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 16 of 191 (450968)
01-25-2008 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by arachnophilia
01-25-2008 12:57 AM


I fully expect that everyone who replies on this thread will get indefinite suspensions - the Announcements forum is not and never has been a debate forum. However, I feel compelled to respond to this beautifully articulated cri de coeur. I have been a member here since shortly after the site's inception (six months?). You touched on three of the things that I have found inescapably attractive: the level of intellect exhibited by many (most?) long-term members, the quality of the administration, and the incredible wealth of information available at the touch of a keyboard. No other discussion forum related to this topic - even including the grandfather of them all iidb - has ever risen close to the quality of this site. I've laughed with members, cried with members, argued with members, gotten completely angry with members, and even made some long-term (virtual) friendships with members - something that has made very-often-lonely assignments in remote places a bit more tolerable.
After this long association, I am very inclined to give Percy the benefit of the doubt. However, I fear - as you apparently do - that the sense of community that made this site so special is a thing of the past. So be it - it is Percy's site, and the rest of us are merely guests. Our idea of what the site should be is immaterial if the "father" of the site disagrees.
If I should be banned for this post... Well, it's been a wonderful experience, and one I'll treasure. We've had a good run. Thank you Percy for allowing me to play in your sandbox for so long.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Admin
Director
Posts: 12995
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 17 of 191 (450970)
01-25-2008 9:38 AM


As We Move Forward
I share many of the concerns people have raised, but my own feeling is that EvC Forum must change or die, where I mean die in the sense of becoming irrelevant or a backwater. A brief conversation with Nosy followed by some reflection leads me to conclude that the problems had almost nothing to do with the moderator team, who performed admirably with great sacrifice under often difficult and ambiguous circumstances, but more with the lack of leadership, which makes the fault mine.
There were two problems that were causing me a great deal of concern:
  1. Discussion of creation/evolution topics was declining in terms of both volume and quality. Those who remember Peter Borger, Tranquility Base and TrueCreation know what I'm talking about, particularly regarding quality.
  2. Dissension over non-creation/evolution topics, such as gay issues, was rising.
In a sense EvC Forum has repeated the history of some of the hippie communes of the 1960's. Begun with great enthusiasm and expectations, after a while they all succumbed to the realities of life: medical care, law enforcement, sanitation, finances, etc., not to mention that people change as they get older, and the firmest friendships somehow decay into embittered animosities.
But EvC Forum is not real life, it's just a discussion board whose goal is to promote discussion on topics related to the creation/evolution controversy, and that hasn't changed. Forums like [forum=-14] enable us to develop and maintain a sense of community, and threads that prove divisive can just be closed.
I hope to gradually grow the moderator team again over time.
But in the future moderator action should prove much more consistent and decisive, because instead of each moderator in essence running their own show from a set of general guidelines, I plan to develop a very brief but very clear and concise set of moderator guidelines, and I've committed myself to providing clear guidance to moderators, something I was very reluctant to do in the past. This is not a way of preventing moderator mistakes, that simply isn't possible, but it should allow much more consistent moderation, and the problems we experienced in some threads, and also in the moderation threads where some members revealed that they had somehow developed enormous feelings of entitlement, should become a much less common occurrence.
I believe that if we carry on our tradition of maintaining an open dialogue between the two sides in the creation/evolution controversy that we can only succeed, and the recent changes include a rededication to this goal.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

Replies to this message:
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Admin
Director
Posts: 12995
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 18 of 191 (450972)
01-25-2008 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Quetzal
01-25-2008 9:15 AM


Quetzal writes:
I fully expect that everyone who replies on this thread will get indefinite suspensions - the Announcements forum is not and never has been a debate forum.
Two things:
  • Realizing that some announcements require discussion, we some time ago created the [forum=-36] forum, which only permit posts from moderators. That's where site statistics and suspension information is posted.
    Discussion in this thread is fine.
  • I'm only issuing indefinite suspensions to members who specifically request it, or who indicate by the nature of a reply that they would be a divisive presence in moving forward. In some circumstances I weighed past history.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Admin
Director
Posts: 12995
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 19 of 191 (450974)
01-25-2008 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by RAZD
01-24-2008 9:14 PM


Re: more suggestions (ducks)
Topic proposals are closed after the proposer hasn't replied for a week. I jumped the gun on your proposal by a couple days because you said you were losing interest in Message 4 and then hadn't replied again.
I've reopened the thread.
Edited by Admin, : Change author.
Edited by Admin, : Add signature.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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Admin
Director
Posts: 12995
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 20 of 191 (450977)
01-25-2008 10:27 AM


[forum=-15] Restored to Life
I have resurrected the [forum=-15] forum. Only "coffee house" style topics are permitted in this forum. It cannot be used as a way of avoiding moderation of science and religion topics. Threads on such topics found in the [forum=-15] forum will be moved to the [forum=-25] forum for consideration of promotion.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by CK, posted 01-25-2008 3:19 PM Admin has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 191 (450979)
01-25-2008 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Admin
01-25-2008 9:51 AM


NWR Suspension
NWR did not violate the instructions set forth in your OP. As per your instructions he cited specific posts which he felt needful to be addressed.
With the moderation thread closed there was no other venue of addressing these messages of yours. Unlike the other suspended members he followed your instructions for addressing the posts.
Perhaps you saw this in a different light but I saw NWR's message as a legitimate request for message clarification which would be helpful to the membership at large who were equally stunned by the suddenness of the action.
Imo, given the sudden unexpected nature of your action you should, as NJ has suggested, consider reinacting the priviledges of those suspended, some of the early ones having no idea that their action would be as serious as it turned out for them and the others being supportive protesters to action they deemed oppressive on behalf of their long time associates.
It appears that the solution to the state of the board is more related to leadership as you have stated than the symptomatic improprieties in the forums.
I've said the above to suggest reinstatement, reconciliation and revision.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 191 (450990)
01-25-2008 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Admin
01-25-2008 9:38 AM


Re: As We Move Forward
1. Discussion of creation/evolution topics was declining in terms of both volume and quality. Those who remember Peter Borger, Tranquility Base and TrueCreation know what I'm talking about, particularly regarding quality.
I know that, just as the name of the forum suggests, you would like for creation/evolution topics to be the focal point. But it isn't. So we should figure out why that is.
Fewer and fewer creationists are in existence now. Of those that do exist, the newer creationists haven't the quality that you would expect since the absence of TrueCreation, Tranquility Base, Peter Borger, etc.
Though I am not a creationist, I still fit somewhere in this category in that I see serious discrepencies in the widely held field of evolution. I also believe that Intelligent Design makes great arguments in its stead. Despite that, my interest in the debate has waned considerably over the years. I know that you would prefer that people such as myself engage more in these kinds of topics, but my heart is just not in it.
I find much more interest in the social implications of these topics rather than the science itself. This is a little disheartening for me, since I was very interested in it at one time. I can't really pinpoint why it has begun to bore me.
With that said, if some kind of compromise can be made in the future, I would be willing to take one for the team and attempt to rededicate myself to the debate for the sake of the forum.
The greater point that I think may be the issue is that the debate may just be over. If evolutionists sought to defeat creationism, they may have already done so. And it ends up being a case of having received what you asked for (the demise of creation), only to realize that in the end that you don't like the outcome (the demise of creation), because now it forces us to abandon the very premise of the forum.
2. Dissension over non-creation/evolution topics, such as gay issues, was rising.
By noticing what threads you participate in versus what you don't participate in, I see that the other threads about religion and social topics bore you. If I were a betting man, I would say that in many ways you probably regret having ever made those forums since it tends to detract from the focal point.
But like it or not, that is your money-maker right now. Gotta go with what is generating revenue.
In a sense EvC Forum has repeated the history of some of the hippie communes of the 1960's. Begun with great enthusiasm and expectations, after a while they all succumbed to the realities of life: medical care, law enforcement, sanitation, finances, etc., not to mention that people change as they get older, and the firmest friendships somehow decay into embittered animosities.
Very true. I like the analogy.
But EvC Forum is not real life, it's just a discussion board
Yes, but EvC does provide a venue for people to let out some of their thoughts. And for countless others, this is a place where entire worldviews take form -- hundreds of lurkers a day. I don't think we should take that lightly, as it comes with great responsibility. We tend to treat it as a game. I fully implicate myself in that. But it really isn't. There are serious things we discuss in here, and we could potentially be helping or hindering countless people.
Is there any other place where we discuss at length the kind of things we talk about in the forum? Would you ever really strike up a conversation at this length with some random person? Sure, it occasionally happens at real coffee house, or at churches, or when a group of friends come over to your house for dinner, or at a bar where drunken dialogue takes form through the lessening of inhibitions.
But the forum provides a level of anonymity, where we can let it all hang out without having to deal with the body language of one's opponent. In that way, it may be better than real life because people that ordinarily are reserved and introverted get to express themselves and their deepest thoughts, without having the silver-tongued bully control the dialogue in their favor, not on the basis of the strength of their argument, but on the basis that they have been bestowed greater oratory skills.
Its like Hovind. You may think he's a complete crackpot. But like it or not, he has won every debate I've ever seen him engage in. That doesn't necessarily mean that his position is right, it means that he has come prepared and that he is naturally predisposed to it.
Forums like Coffee House enable us to develop and maintain a sense of community, and threads that prove divisive can just be closed.
I hope that you never take away the Coffee House. Its your money-maker.
I hope to gradually grow the moderator team again over time.
But only for your own sanity and because a strong, impartial moderating team has a better chance of ubiquity than one man alone who has to pour through millions of words a day. It would be anarchy without it.
In the event that you do start to bring them back, may I suggest the reopening of the Moderation threads? As Arach has shared, it is a checks and balance system. It gives those that don't have a voice the chance for an appeal.
With that said, I have seen some members make their plea and where the Admin and the member go back and forth multiple times. Ultimately, the Admin has the final say. We should come up with a way to limit that. But taking it away completely seems equally destructive. We just need to find a balance.

“There is something which unites magic and applied science while separating both from the 'wisdom' of earlier ages. For the wise men of old the cardinal problem had been how to conform the soul to objective reality, and the solution had been knowledge, self-discipline, and virtue. For magic and applied science alike the problem is how to subdue reality to the wishes of men: the solution is a technique; and both, in the practice of this technique, are ready to do things hitherto regarded as disgusting and impious" -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 23 of 191 (450992)
01-25-2008 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Admin
01-25-2008 9:51 AM


Percy writes:
Discussion in this thread is fine.
OK. I need to say something. I am so sorry if I offended anyone. I disagree with some of your suspensions, Boss..but its your world and your forum...not mine. Sorry if I overstepped my authority or perception of same while I was an administrator.
I wanted to be able to help change EvC Forum myself...and was quite enthusiastic about doing so.
I will continue to try and make it a better place while being just a member, but I will be sad to see some of my old friends no longer here.

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Replies to this message:
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Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 24 of 191 (451008)
01-25-2008 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Phat
01-25-2008 12:04 PM


Percy writes:
Discussion in this thread is fine.
I that case, I would like to add my two cents worth. I think that Percy has every right to be angry, but I also think that these "Night of the Long Knives" style suspensions have gone too far. What exactly has Brennakimi done to deserve suspension? Or Iceage? Or Jar of all people? The whole thing has left a nasty taste in my mouth, and I've only been here two months. No wonder some long time members are upset.
If you want to suspend people Percy, that is your decision, but I don't think it will help, quite the reverse. With respect, I'm asking you to reverse the suspensions, with the possible exception of Amen, who seems to have only himself to blame. I know that my voice counts for very little, but I just felt that I had to go on record. I hope that this whole thing can be resolved.
Peace.

Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
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CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 25 of 191 (451009)
01-25-2008 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Admin
01-25-2008 10:27 AM


Re: [forum=-15] Restored to Life
why do we have a coffee house and a "free for all"? why not just merge the two with maybe some modification to the guidelines to that area?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Admin, posted 01-25-2008 10:27 AM Admin has replied

Replies to this message:
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Admin
Director
Posts: 12995
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 26 of 191 (451010)
01-25-2008 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by CK
01-25-2008 3:19 PM


Re: [forum=-15] Restored to Life
CK writes:
why do we have a coffee house and a "free for all"? why not just merge the two with maybe some modification to the guidelines to that area?
Sorry, should have explained that part better.
[forum=-14] will be moderated, though likely with a lighter touch than the primary discussion forums, pretty much as before. Stay sort of on-topic and mostly civil and that should be fine.
Coffee House type discussions that decline into abusive behavior or that afront or outrage the sensibilities of one or both sides, whether or not they appear justified, will either be closed or moved to [forum=-15]. Except for on-topic issues, moderators will not get involved in that forum. Moderators will not be attempting to sort out who's in the wrong when discussions about gay issues or women's rights or racism and so on become inflamed.
As before, anyone may start a topic in [forum=-14], and the same is now true of [forum=-15].

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 27 of 191 (451016)
01-25-2008 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Admin
01-25-2008 3:33 PM


Re: [forum=-15] Restored to Life
percy, i'm confused.
you've gone from a position of "don't talk about XYZ" to "have at, and as nasty as you want" in less than the span of two days.
the free-for-all may be a good experiment, lets see how that goes i guess. i suspect it will turn out a lot like the sandbox. and booting threads there instead of moderating them... i dunno. to be honest, i still believe the old style of moderation worked fine, and i'm not sure what all the fuss was about. i realize the last instance of "gay issues" erupted in massive fights in the moderation thread, but that's an issue that could have (and in my opinion, should have) been dealt with using proper, normal moderation.
i really think we still need a thread for discussion of moderation, regardless of how many or how few moderators there are, and a thread for announcing who is suspended/banned for how long, and why. the transparency and communication with the moderation is a neccessary step in creating fair and balanced moderation of the site. i do not see the shift from "democracy" to "totalitarian dictatorship" as a good thing. maybe you do -- but a lot of people are now afraid to post discussing this issue lest they be dragged out into the street and shot, so to speak. and those who aren't... well, board activity is way down.
and what is really going on with these seemingly random indefinite suspensions? i can't even figure what jar did, if anything. brenna got banned for showing concern for your wellbeing. i think everyone's upset about this. why are you banning old and formerly valued members of the community?


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Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 28 of 191 (451031)
01-25-2008 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by arachnophilia
01-25-2008 12:57 AM


quote:
indeed, banning the people who object is the surest way to get brought down to the level of uncommon descent, or any other creationist-run board were the bias is literally in the forum rules. further, it's a fast and effective way to destroy the community that many of the as-yet-unbanned people used to know and love. i can't speak of others, but i know my desire to post has gone way down. maybe the forum will eventually recover; maybe not. but it sure won't be the same without people like omni, side, nwr, ringo... all those old-timers you spoke of that form the backbone of the community here. yeah, it's always the same old fight -- but it has been for the last 150 years. it always will be.
percy, if you choose to ban me for speaking my mind, i can't stop you. you've banned almost everyone else who did, the people that normally ensured fair moderation. the new system, i'll get over it. but i can't just stand by while all the valued members of the this forum either leave on their own or are forced to leave by you. i'm concerned for the well-being of the site and the community, and i am sincerely disappointed and worried by the absences left by people you have indefinitely suspended for reasons that run counter to everything this place used to stand for. i don't know what will become of EvC, but this is, in my humblest of opinions, not a good first foot forward. you've always listened to reason in past, percy, something i have greatly respected. please don't stop now.
Seconded.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by arachnophilia, posted 01-25-2008 12:57 AM arachnophilia has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 29 of 191 (451033)
01-25-2008 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by arachnophilia
01-25-2008 4:25 PM


Re: [forum=-15] Restored to Life
quote:
i do not see the shift from "democracy" to "totalitarian dictatorship" as a good thing. maybe you do -- but a lot of people are now afraid to post discussing this issue lest they be dragged out into the street and shot, so to speak. and those who aren't... well, board activity is way down.
and what is really going on with these seemingly random indefinite suspensions? i can't even figure what jar did, if anything. brenna got banned for showing concern for your wellbeing. i think everyone's upset about this. why are you banning old and formerly valued members of the community?
I am, frankly, appalled at all of these suspensions.
Percy, explain yourself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by arachnophilia, posted 01-25-2008 4:25 PM arachnophilia has not replied

Admin
Director
Posts: 12995
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 30 of 191 (451039)
01-25-2008 6:48 PM


Brief Answers
If members would like to discuss creation/evolution, the board is as available as ever for that purpose.
If members would like to discuss other topics, the board is also as available as ever for that purpose.
But the board will no longer be entertaining member/moderator discussion threads. The moderation threads are clear evidence that it rarely resolves anything, and it turns moderators into targets.
I regret taking sudden action, but EvC Forum had become a Gordian Knot of moderators, threads, forums and processes inching inexorably into chaos. The gay issues debacle was just the final straw.
Things are simpler now. I've removed those who I felt were the most divisive elements and also those who requested it. For those of you for whom the changes and suspensions are truly unendurable then there are other alternative than just excoriating me, which won't do anything except make me feel bad. I am resolved to stay the course I have chosen. I've done nothing to you, and the Internet is a big place with many other sites.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

Replies to this message:
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