Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
7 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,809 Year: 3,066/9,624 Month: 911/1,588 Week: 94/223 Day: 5/17 Hour: 1/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Religion v Spirituality
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 61 of 161 (450466)
01-22-2008 3:24 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Granny Magda
01-21-2008 7:41 PM


Re: Knowable spirituality
It is difficult to explain because it's a bit paradoxical but I will have a go.
There is nothing outside of us that doesn't exist within.
What does it mean in real terms?
Everything we are aware of on the outside of us could not exist in our reality without our 'awareness' of it existing. E.g. the flat earth existed until someone had a new idea on the possibilty it could be round. It still existed as flat until it had been experienced and believed by enough humans to change the reality.
However, the reality did not change. The earth was always round but to the believers of the flat earth, that was the reality. The awareness or consciousness or beliefs changed and they all exist within the human psyche.
Therefore whether or not something exists depends on awareness coupled with experience.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Granny Magda, posted 01-21-2008 7:41 PM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Granny Magda, posted 01-22-2008 4:38 AM pelican has replied
 Message 69 by sidelined, posted 01-22-2008 1:40 PM pelican has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 62 of 161 (450468)
01-22-2008 3:41 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Larni
01-21-2008 8:27 AM


Re: Knowable spirituality
Dosen't sound very fundamental, I know exactly who I am. I assume you know who you are.
What's that got to do with spirituality?
If you mean to say that we are something other than that which we are then you are on shaky ground, my friend.
I mean to say that we are much more than we think we are and whilst we think we know who we are then we cannot become more. We, humanity as a whole, are everything to do with spirituality. Without us there is no spirituality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Larni, posted 01-21-2008 8:27 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Larni, posted 01-22-2008 4:28 AM pelican has replied
 Message 80 by Larni, posted 01-23-2008 8:41 AM pelican has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 63 of 161 (450469)
01-22-2008 4:28 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by pelican
01-22-2008 3:41 AM


Re: Knowable spirituality
Heinrik writes:
I mean to say that we are much more than we think we are and whilst we think we know who we are then we cannot become more. We, humanity as a whole, are everything to do with spirituality. Without us there is no spirituality.
The thing is Heinrik, you no reason to believe this is true. Many people are always striving to improve themselves without buying into your 'much more than we think we are'.
How do you know we are 'more than we are' and what does this have to do with the hazy dazy term 'spiritual'?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by pelican, posted 01-22-2008 3:41 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by pelican, posted 01-22-2008 7:33 AM Larni has replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 64 of 161 (450472)
01-22-2008 4:38 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by pelican
01-22-2008 3:24 AM


Paradox
Yes, well that certainly is paradoxical.
quote:
Everything we are aware of on the outside of us could not exist in our reality without our 'awareness' of it existing. E.g. the flat earth existed until someone had a new idea on the possibilty it could be round. It still existed as flat until it had been experienced and believed by enough humans to change the reality.
However, the reality did not change. The earth was always round but to the believers of the flat earth, that was the reality. The awareness or consciousness or beliefs changed and they all exist within the human psyche.
Those two paragraphs completely contradict each other. You appear to be saying that reality is what we believe it to be, but you then go on to say the exact opposite.
Reality is not not influenced by our perceptions of it. The Earth was round long before anyone was around to imagine that it might be flat. It was still round when people thought it was flat (an idea that was never particularly widespread BTW) and it remains round, whatever we believe or perceive. The idea of a flat Earth may have existed in peoples minds, and it still does, but that doesn't mean it really existed, except as an idea. There is an important distinction to be made here between existence as an idea, within the human mind and existence in objective reality.
quote:
There is nothing outside of us that doesn't exist within.
What about a hypothetical life form, on an undiscovered planet? It would not exist in our minds, but it would still nonetheless be quite real.
One last question; if a tree falls in a forest and only a Big Brother contestant is there to hear it, does it still make a sound?

Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by pelican, posted 01-22-2008 3:24 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by pelican, posted 01-22-2008 8:08 AM Granny Magda has replied
 Message 68 by Larni, posted 01-22-2008 8:54 AM Granny Magda has not replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 65 of 161 (450481)
01-22-2008 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Larni
01-22-2008 4:28 AM


Re: Knowable spirituality
The thing is Heinrik, you no reason to believe this is true. Many people are always striving to improve themselves without buying into your 'much more than we think we are'.
I cannot prove this is true but I do have reason to believe it is. I am not talking about improving oneself, but truly knowing self and being true to oneself. This is the spirituality to which I refer. Not the supernatural but the natural which is super.
Mandella said, "The problem isn't that we think too highly of ourselves but that we don't think highly enough."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Larni, posted 01-22-2008 4:28 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Larni, posted 01-22-2008 8:51 AM pelican has replied
 Message 147 by Jaderis, posted 02-24-2008 8:26 AM pelican has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 66 of 161 (450483)
01-22-2008 8:08 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Granny Magda
01-22-2008 4:38 AM


Re: Paradox
Those two paragraphs completely contradict each other. You appear to be saying that reality is what we believe it to be, but you then go on to say the exact opposite.
They are two sides of the same coin. Reality is what we believe it to be and experience it to be, until we become aware and experience it differently.
The reality of the earth being round had no impact "on their reality". Until the belief was challenged it stood to be true.
What about a hypothetical life form, on an undiscovered planet? It would not exist in our minds, but it would still nonetheless be quite real.
You could hypothetically say that but no-one would believe you.
One last question; if a tree falls in a forest and only a Big Brother contestant is there to hear it, does it still make a sound?
Who is this big brother contestant? Do you mean George Bush?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Granny Magda, posted 01-22-2008 4:38 AM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Granny Magda, posted 01-23-2008 2:40 AM pelican has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 67 of 161 (450488)
01-22-2008 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by pelican
01-22-2008 7:33 AM


Re: Knowable spirituality
Heinrik writes:
I cannot prove this is true but I do have reason to believe it is.
Then for what reason do you believe this to be true if you do not have enough evidence to 'prove' it?
Heinrik writes:
I am not talking about improving oneself, but truly knowing self and being true to oneself.
Now you are moving the goal post and redefining your terms. And anyway, what the hell does 'truly knowing yourself and being true to your self' mean?
Can you only partially know your self?
Can you be untrue to yourself?
You bandy about terms and define them as spiritual but in fact appear to mean 'being conscistant with ones nature'.
Your Mandella quote is well observed; but it has bugger all to do with spirituallity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by pelican, posted 01-22-2008 7:33 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by pelican, posted 01-22-2008 9:45 PM Larni has replied
 Message 72 by pelican, posted 01-22-2008 9:47 PM Larni has not replied
 Message 73 by pelican, posted 01-22-2008 9:48 PM Larni has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 68 of 161 (450489)
01-22-2008 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Granny Magda
01-22-2008 4:38 AM


Re: Paradox
Granny Magda writes:
One last question; if a tree falls in a forest and only a Big Brother contestant is there to hear it, does it still make a sound?
I would like it to be the sound of the Big Brother contestant becoming spiritual with a big crunch.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Granny Magda, posted 01-22-2008 4:38 AM Granny Magda has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5907 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 69 of 161 (450540)
01-22-2008 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by pelican
01-22-2008 3:24 AM


Re: Knowable spirituality
Heinrik
Everything we are aware of on the outside of us could not exist in our reality without our 'awareness' of it existing.
So you mean to say that, some years back, when I was in an emergency room having my hand operated on that when I was unaware of things due to being unconscious from the anesthetic that the surgeons fixing my hand did not exist? How would you explain them taking credit for it when they came to visit me when I awoke?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by pelican, posted 01-22-2008 3:24 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by pelican, posted 01-22-2008 5:44 PM sidelined has not replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 70 of 161 (450577)
01-22-2008 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by sidelined
01-22-2008 1:40 PM


Re: Knowable spirituality
So you mean to say that, some years back, when I was in an emergency room having my hand operated on that when I was unaware of things due to being unconscious from the anesthetic that the surgeons fixing my hand did not exist?
No I did not say that and I did not mean to say that. You missed the most imortant part of the statement which is "IN OUR REALITY". OURS as a whole. REALITY as an expereince of the belief.
Edited by Heinrik, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by sidelined, posted 01-22-2008 1:40 PM sidelined has not replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 71 of 161 (450629)
01-22-2008 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Larni
01-22-2008 8:51 AM


Re: Knowable spirituality
You know, Larni I have really tried to express myself and my concepts to the best of my ability. There is nothing I can add that would not cause more of these reactionary posts. I am called woo woo, silly, stupid, accused of bandying words, and so much more. This does not hurt me and generally I ignore such remarks. But you know, your final statement told me not to ignore them any more.
larni writes:
Your Mandella quote is well observed; but it has bugger all to do with spirituallity.
I am banging my head against a brick wall with someone who is intent on disagreeing without any ideas or understanding of their own.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Larni, posted 01-22-2008 8:51 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by nwr, posted 01-22-2008 11:34 PM pelican has replied
 Message 81 by Larni, posted 01-23-2008 8:44 AM pelican has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 72 of 161 (450630)
01-22-2008 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Larni
01-22-2008 8:51 AM


Re: Knowable spirituality
You know, Larni I have really tried to express myself and my concepts to the best of my ability. There is nothing I can add that would not cause more of these reactionary posts. I am called woo woo, silly, stupid, accused of bandying words, and so much more. Generally, I ignore such remarks. But you know, your final statement told me not to ignore them any more.
larni writes:
Your Mandella quote is well observed; but it has bugger all to do with spirituallity.
I am banging my head against a brick wall with someone who is intent on disagreeing without any ideas or understanding of their own.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Larni, posted 01-22-2008 8:51 AM Larni has not replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 73 of 161 (450631)
01-22-2008 9:48 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Larni
01-22-2008 8:51 AM



This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Larni, posted 01-22-2008 8:51 AM Larni has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 74 of 161 (450641)
01-22-2008 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by pelican
01-22-2008 9:45 PM


What is spirituality?
I am banging my head against a brick wall with someone who is intent on disagreeing without any ideas or understanding of their own.
I have been following this thread. It is now at 74 messages, but I still haven't a clue as to what "spirituality" means, if it even means anything at all.

What if you educated folk are too educated to understand some of us? - Heinrik

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by pelican, posted 01-22-2008 9:45 PM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by pelican, posted 01-23-2008 7:53 AM nwr has replied
 Message 86 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-23-2008 11:40 AM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 75 of 161 (450651)
01-23-2008 2:40 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by pelican
01-22-2008 8:08 AM


Re: Paradox
quote:
Reality is what we believe it to be and experience it to be, until we become aware and experience it differently. The reality of the earth being round had no impact "on their reality". Until the belief was challenged it stood to be true.
The above statements would make much more sense if you substituted the phrase "world-view" for "reality". Our world-view is governed by our perceptions, but reality itself is not. Reality does not care what you think. The shared reality you talk about would be better described as perception or interpretation of reality, not reality itself.
NWR is right, this topic is in danger of sliding into an abyss of off-topic nonsense. What you are talking about Heinrik, is philosophy, specifically ontology. It has nothing to do with spirituality and your insistence on describing it in those terms only confuses things.

Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by pelican, posted 01-22-2008 8:08 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by pelican, posted 01-23-2008 8:24 AM Granny Magda has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024