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Author Topic:   Life! What a concept!
Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5500 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 31 of 44 (448970)
01-15-2008 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by teen4christ
01-15-2008 5:43 PM


Re: Digital or what?
t4c writes:
Prions and the elements inside a burning star. Neither is considered "life" by any conventional mean and both pass on "digital" information to the next generation.
Hi teen4christ,
Could you elaborate on how prions and elements inside stars would qualify as having or being digital information? This would be relevant to what Seth Lloyd said about digital information in the subject document.
”HM
Please read Message 40 before responding to this post.
Thanks --AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2642 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 32 of 44 (448994)
01-15-2008 9:53 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Fosdick
01-15-2008 7:17 PM


Re: Digital or what?
HM, the subject of this thread is the .pdf I mentioned in the OP.
You need to stick to the topic.
If you'd like to start a "DNA and Its Relationship to Prions and the Stars" thread, you are welcome to do so.
To discuss that relationship here is OT.
Please read Message 40 before responding to this post.
Thanks --AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Fosdick, posted 01-15-2008 7:17 PM Fosdick has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Taz, posted 01-15-2008 11:22 PM molbiogirl has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 33 of 44 (449003)
01-15-2008 11:22 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by molbiogirl
01-15-2008 9:53 PM


Re: Digital or what?
Jesus Christ, molbio, the guy just started posting today and you're already throwing hand grenades at him. No wonder we don't have very many creos here. Only the ones that can dodge your bullets can enter the door without having their brains splashed everywhere.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by molbiogirl, posted 01-15-2008 9:53 PM molbiogirl has replied

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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2642 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 34 of 44 (449006)
01-15-2008 11:29 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Taz
01-15-2008 11:22 PM


Re: Digital or what?
Taz, I just call em as I see em.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by sidelined, posted 01-15-2008 11:34 PM molbiogirl has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 35 of 44 (449007)
01-15-2008 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by molbiogirl
01-15-2008 11:29 PM


Re: Digital or what?
molbiogirl
Oh well if you go to war without your Kevlar you cannot be bitching about the shrapnel wounds.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by molbiogirl, posted 01-15-2008 11:29 PM molbiogirl has replied

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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2642 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 36 of 44 (449011)
01-15-2008 11:50 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by sidelined
01-15-2008 11:34 PM


Re: Digital or what?
Sidelined, wtf? Kevlar? Shrapnel?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by sidelined, posted 01-15-2008 11:34 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by sidelined, posted 01-16-2008 12:34 AM molbiogirl has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 37 of 44 (449019)
01-16-2008 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by molbiogirl
01-15-2008 11:50 PM


Re: Digital or what?
molbiogirl
Sorry for the confusion. I was speaking about the creationists Taz thought you were shredding. I thought that they would be best advised that if they wish to go to war with you they had best be prepared.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by molbiogirl, posted 01-15-2008 11:50 PM molbiogirl has replied

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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2642 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 38 of 44 (449022)
01-16-2008 12:36 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by sidelined
01-16-2008 12:34 AM


Re: Digital or what?
Thank the lord jeeezus chee-rist. You had me scared, boy!

This message is a reply to:
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AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 39 of 44 (449029)
01-16-2008 6:50 AM


Thread moved here from the Coffee House forum.

  
AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 40 of 44 (449031)
01-16-2008 6:56 AM


Review the Book
I realize the opening post leaves a lot to be desired and this thread started off in the wrong forum, but now we have a new beginning.
From this post forward, the discussion deals with reviewing the book.
Please start new topics or move to existing topics if your discussion starts to venture away from the book and its authors.
Please direct any comments concerning this Admin msg to the Moderation Thread.
Any response in this thread will receive a 24 hour timeout.
Thank you Purple

  
Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5500 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 41 of 44 (449068)
01-16-2008 11:15 AM


The Book
Well, OK then, let's discuss the book without touching on any of its ideas. For starters the book is not bound very well. But it's free. I think the font probably is Times New Roman. And it's double spaced, too, for easier reading. Yes, and the authors...oh, sorry, that's OT because it's not about the book. Hmm, not much else to say, except B&N doesn't carry it and you have to provide your own paper if you want a printed version. That's 'bout it, so far as the book is concerned.
Gosh, am I a good poster! Stayed right on topic for the good of EvC and all mankind.
”HM

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 42 of 44 (449148)
01-16-2008 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by molbiogirl
01-14-2008 9:49 PM


review lite
In Message 70, molbiogirl writes:
If someone is interested in reading the book and posting their thoughts, they are more than welcome to do so.
So here are my thoughts, after reading "Life: What a Concept!"
The online book appears to be a partial transcript of the collective ruminations of a bunch of starry eyed white males, as they discuss their theories of everything. One wonders what they were smoking.
This book most reminds me of the aura of optimism that followed Turing's 1950 paper in Mind, "Computing Machinery and Intelligence". In that paper, Turing predicted that machine intelligence was just around the corner. He estimated how much memory and processor speed would be required. By now, we have far surpassed Turing's estimate, but we still do not have machine intelligence. There are still starry eyed AI folk who make the same arguments, but claim that we don't yet have enough memory and compute power. However, there is far less optimism that could once be found.
This "Life" book is similarly optimistic, and it adds biotechnology to the mix. Biotech is, indeed, a major theme, but there is still talk of computation, even to the point of mentioning Goedel's theorem and the halting problem.
The idea that the universe is a giant computer, long a staple of AI talk, shows up in Seth Lloyd's comments (pages 143 and following). On page 147, Lloyd writes "If you program a computer at random, it will start producing other computers, other ways of computing, other more complicated, composite ways of computing." Perhaps he has never heard of GIGO (Garbage In, Garbage Out).
Robert Shapiro perhaps has some of the same skepticism I am expressing. He is clearly not buying into the "life starts with RNA/DNA/replication" ideas. His idea is that it started with simpler reactions, and that RNA arose out of something simpler. That make some sense to me.
There is a discussion of possible definitions of life, beginning at around page 103. And it seems that the tentative definitions are knocked down as quickly as they are proposed. Dyson wonders about life in a vacuum (p.112), but Lloyd points out that you need an energy source and flows of materials.
The logo near the top of the conference web page is "Life/ Consists of propositions about life." That reads like a solipsists manifesto. And in this readers opinion, that's the whole problem with the "everything is information and computation" viewpoint - it is solipsistic.
[In case anybody wonders, I was having a little fun writing this.]

Let's end the political smears

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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2642 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 43 of 44 (449179)
01-17-2008 12:08 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by nwr
01-16-2008 8:53 PM


Re: review lite
Thanks, nwr.
I'm only 2/3rds of the way thru.
Dyson is not worth reading.
Venter's stuff is awfully darn fun to read. The Sorcerer II expedition, the rhodopsin microorganism he found, the genome transplant, etc. In fact, Venter was quite down to earth. Practical even. He indulged in no flights of fancy.
Church was all over the place. And kinda boring. But the synthetic polymerase stuff was neat.
So was all of that mirror-image protein/sugars stuff.
Shapiro kicked the ever lovin snot out of previous abiogenesis research. I loved it!
He (Shapiro) is clearly not buying into the "life starts with RNA/DNA/replication" ideas.
I don't know of an abiogenesis researcher who thinks RNA/DNA just appeared and life began.
His idea is that it started with simpler reactions, and that RNA arose out of something simpler. That make some sense to me.
I don't know of an abiogenesis researcher who thinks otherwise.
Shapiro is as far as I've gotten.
That said, so far, the only person way off in la la land is Lloyd (and I haven't read his whole section yet).
Even Dyson doesn't indulge in the kind of goofiness that you suggest characterizes the whole book.

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TheNaturalist
Member (Idle past 5684 days)
Posts: 86
Joined: 01-18-2008


Message 44 of 44 (450606)
01-22-2008 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Fosdick
01-15-2008 7:24 PM


Re: Digital or what?
t4c writes:
Prions and the elements inside a burning star. Neither is considered "life" by any conventional mean and both pass on "digital" information to the next generation
Yeah obviously; life is an example of digital information(since it is all based on fundamental units, which are the four bases, and, to a lower level, atoms, string particles), however, digital information is not necessarily life.
Being digital is a condition of life. Not everything digital is life, since non-life can also have the condition of being digital, you see?

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