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Author Topic:   Religion v Spirituality
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 46 of 161 (449960)
01-20-2008 12:28 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Woodsy
01-18-2008 10:29 AM


Re: Knowable spirituality
Spot on Woodsy.
"Numinous" perfectly describes the feeling of wonder at the natural world that many of us are lucky enough to experience. I think that it is worth letting religious believers know that this feeling is not confined to the religious experience.
I dislike "spirituality" for much the same reasons as Larni has described. If a person does not believe in the supernatural and specifically in the existence of a soul or spirit, then I cannot see that the word "spirituality" could have any useful meaning. Too often people use spirituality as a sort of net, in which to catch often unrelated ideas and describe them under a single banner. A bit of sympathetic magic here, a little pagan imagery there, all topped off with a dash of moral philosophy. Calling all this spiritual is a neat way of presenting all this in a positive light, as though it were part of a single philosophy. The new age movement are most guilty of this.
"Energy" is another catch-all term that is misunderstood by many and it is frequently misapplied (sorry Heinrik), especially in contexts where the word "magic" might be better suited. Things like crystal healing or reiki are essentially kinds of magic, but modern people are usually a bit ashamed to say that they believe in magic, so words like "energy" and "spirituality" are vague enough to become popular substitutes.
I would speculate that the enthusiasm for spirituality is most prevalent in countries where religion has become somewhat marginalised. Many people in the West have abandoned organised religion, but are not ready to let go of superstitious thinking altogether. Spirituality is just a way of clinging on to religiose behaviour.

Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by pelican, posted 01-20-2008 9:00 AM Granny Magda has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 47 of 161 (449994)
01-20-2008 6:22 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by pelican
01-19-2008 6:31 PM


Re: Knowable spirituality
I think you are right and I think Granny is bang on with her assessment, too. I think that when people stop beleiving in organised religion they can start to believe in anything at all and this gets labled as 'spirituality'.
It seems that some people really need the supernatural in their life in some form or another.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by pelican, posted 01-19-2008 6:31 PM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
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pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 48 of 161 (450008)
01-20-2008 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Larni
01-20-2008 6:22 AM


Re: Knowable spirituality
I think the meaning of spirituality is too vague and too encompassing. However, I do believe there is a shift in humanities' consciousness, meaning changing of beliefs.
Personally, I do not believe in the supernatural, either in spirituality or in religion. I figure if god, angels and devil are real then so are ghosts, aliens and spirits.

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pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 49 of 161 (450013)
01-20-2008 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Granny Magda
01-20-2008 12:28 AM


Re: Knowable spirituality
grannymagda writes:
"Numinous" perfectly describes the feeling of wonder at the "natural world" that many of us are lucky enough to experience.
Numinous :
Of or relating to a numen; "supernatural".
Filled with or characterized by a sense of a supernatural presence: a numinous place.
Spiritually elevated; sublime.
I have a different definition than yours. Where did you get yours from?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Granny Magda, posted 01-20-2008 12:28 AM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Woodsy, posted 01-20-2008 11:04 AM pelican has replied
 Message 52 by Larni, posted 01-20-2008 12:37 PM pelican has replied
 Message 53 by Granny Magda, posted 01-20-2008 10:15 PM pelican has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 50 of 161 (450014)
01-20-2008 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Woodsy
01-18-2008 10:29 AM


Re: Knowable spirituality
Would you check the definition of "Numinous." I have a different meaning to yours. Are there any other definitions out there?
Edited by Heinrik, : No reason given.

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Woodsy
Member (Idle past 3374 days)
Posts: 301
From: Burlington, Canada
Joined: 08-30-2006


Message 51 of 161 (450029)
01-20-2008 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by pelican
01-20-2008 9:00 AM


Re: Knowable spirituality
Filled with or characterized by a sense of a supernatural presence: a numinous place.
Spiritually elevated; sublime.
(my emphasis)
The point is that having an experience of this sort is not evidence that it is actually caused by anything supernatural.
People often have such experiences, and they are important. It remains to be demonstrated that they are not entirely self-generated. Indeed, it has been shown that they can be induced by applying electrical fields (or magnetic, I forget which) to people's heads.
ABE: (reply to 49 instead of 50 since a definition is given there)
Edited by Woodsy, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 52 of 161 (450042)
01-20-2008 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by pelican
01-20-2008 9:00 AM


Re: Knowable spirituality
The closest I have ever come to a 'spiritual' was when I dabbled in the dark world of magic mushrooms. I fel hyperconnected to everything and at times was crying with joy (another time I was afraid I would lose my identity so it's not all shits and giggles).
Either way, I had a sense of something 'other'. But that don't mean it is true.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by pelican, posted 01-20-2008 9:00 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by pelican, posted 01-21-2008 12:19 AM Larni has replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 53 of 161 (450129)
01-20-2008 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by pelican
01-20-2008 9:00 AM


Re: Knowable spirituality
Hello Heinrik,
You have a good point. I'm not going to dispute that the usual meaning of the word "numinous" is almost as wrapped up in the supernatural as "spiritual". There are important differences that make it preferable though.
The etymology of "numinous" is not as explicitly supernatural as "spiritual".
Wikipedia writes:
Etymologically, it comes from the Latin word numen, which originally and literally meant "nodding", but was associated with meanings of "command" or "divine majesty".
So only an association in the root word, not an explicit religious statement. Here's another definition.
Dictionary.com writes:
numinous \NOO-min-us; NYOO-\, adjective:
1. Of or pertaining to a numen; supernatural.
2. Indicating or suggesting the presence of a god; divine; holy.
3. Inspiring awe and reverence; spiritual.
It's that last one that is the closest fit for what I am trying to describe. There is a problem for atheists in trying to communicate this feeling, because our culture surrounds it in religious or supernatural imagery and language. If it were just a question of trying to avoid religious words and phrases, I would not care. What makes me interested in this is the argument put forward by many theists, to the effect that atheism must be a barren and depressing world-view, lacking in wonder. I reject this idea. I think that atheists can and do experience a sense of the transcendent, a feeling of inspiration, awe and reverence. Unfortunately, i think that many words have picked up too much baggage for use in this context. "Spiritual" is a the prime example. It has become so associated with religion and especially the new age movement, that its use by an atheist has become confusing. "Spiritual" is a philological lost cause in this respect, whereas "numinous" is more often used in an explicitly non-religious way, as in this example, quoted in the Wiktionary definition.;
Thomas W. Laqueur writes:
Smoking is a ritual, and it has all the numinous force of a ritual.
No-one is suggesting that smoking is religious, but to Laqueur, it feels like that sense of wonderment which many people would recognise as a religious experience.
I think that the use of this word in the sense in which Hitchens employs it is a little bit of a departure from the traditional meaning, but only in a nuanced way. I do feel that it is a necessary usage, if only to stop it becoming degraded in same way as "spiritual". I hope that the above clarifies my thinking on this.

Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by pelican, posted 01-20-2008 9:00 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by pelican, posted 01-21-2008 12:11 AM Granny Magda has replied
 Message 145 by Jaderis, posted 02-24-2008 7:34 AM Granny Magda has not replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 54 of 161 (450150)
01-21-2008 12:11 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Granny Magda
01-20-2008 10:15 PM


Re: Knowable spirituality
Great explanation, magda. I have tried to take in all the information posted, internalize it and then put into my words. I guess there will be a name for this but I don't know what it is. I do know it's hard work. Anyway, let me have a go at summarizing.
Spiritualists who do not believe in god are, and do, have the same spiritual experiences of connecting to numinous feelings but do not assume/conclude or believe it is god. Many percieve them in individual ways and give individual meanings, including non-biblical supernatural.
Religionists having the same experiences associate them only with the religious supernatural.
There isn't much to say about the religionists compared to the spiritualists but the common bond is the beliving in the 'supernatural.
Of course, there are the evolutionists who have a different point of view altogether, but I won't go there.
I do believe there is another form of spiritualists who believe that we create all our spiritual emotional experiences from within. There is nothing outside of us that doesn't exist within. To be honest, this is my personal form of spirituality that I do practise in my life.
I don't judge my way as the best way for anyone else other than me. I wanted to have a choice and this thread has been great to clarify what it all means to me.
referring back to the original concept that began this thread:
"Religion is for those who are afraid of going to hell, whereas Spirituality is those who have already been"
I belong to the latter, so I dare say there won't be many of us. Hell is where wise men fear to tread. I was not a wise man.
I truly don't think it matters how these emotional experiences are percieved. It's all life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Granny Magda, posted 01-20-2008 10:15 PM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Granny Magda, posted 01-21-2008 7:41 PM pelican has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 55 of 161 (450151)
01-21-2008 12:19 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Larni
01-20-2008 12:37 PM


Re: Knowable spirituality
You just enjoyed the ride huh?
Your experience means exactly what you say it means and it's the same for everyone, and I agree, it doesn't make it true. It means you had an experience.
I do believe there is a fundamental truth that we all can know and it will only concern the human race, void of outside influences. We just haven't found it yet.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Larni, posted 01-20-2008 12:37 PM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Larni, posted 01-21-2008 5:42 AM pelican has replied
 Message 149 by Jaderis, posted 02-24-2008 9:00 AM pelican has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 56 of 161 (450159)
01-21-2008 1:32 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Woodsy
01-20-2008 11:04 AM


Re: Knowable spirituality
woodsy writes:
The point is that having an experience of this sort is not evidence that it is actually caused by anything supernatural.
This is exactly the point. The experience is real but the cause and the meaning?

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 Message 51 by Woodsy, posted 01-20-2008 11:04 AM Woodsy has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 57 of 161 (450170)
01-21-2008 5:42 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by pelican
01-21-2008 12:19 AM


Re: Knowable spirituality
Which fundemental truth do you mean?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by pelican, posted 01-21-2008 12:19 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by pelican, posted 01-21-2008 7:31 AM Larni has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 58 of 161 (450175)
01-21-2008 7:31 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Larni
01-21-2008 5:42 AM


Re: Knowable spirituality
Which fundemental truth do you mean?
The fundamental truth of who we are.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Larni, posted 01-21-2008 5:42 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Larni, posted 01-21-2008 8:27 AM pelican has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 59 of 161 (450184)
01-21-2008 8:27 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by pelican
01-21-2008 7:31 AM


Re: Knowable spirituality
Heinrik writes:
The fundamental truth of who we are.
Dosen't sound very fundamental, I know exactly who I am. I assume you know who you are.
What's that got to do with spirituality?
If you mean to say that we are something other than that which we are then you are on shaky ground, my friend.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by pelican, posted 01-21-2008 7:31 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by pelican, posted 01-22-2008 3:41 AM Larni has replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 60 of 161 (450413)
01-21-2008 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by pelican
01-21-2008 12:11 AM


Re: Knowable spirituality
quote:
There is nothing outside of us that doesn't exist within.
I'm not sure what you mean by that, would you care to expand upon it?

Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by pelican, posted 01-21-2008 12:11 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by pelican, posted 01-22-2008 3:24 AM Granny Magda has replied

  
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