|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
|
|
Author | Topic: Why Would a Loving God Create Hell? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
sidelined Member (Idle past 6157 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
ICANT
Why would I do that? You quoted me where I said I Are One. But it really would not hurt to clean your glasses I also said I agree. You stated this
ICANT writes: I take it that you are trying to say you stupid idiot God had more sons than one. Yes I agree I Are One. in response to this statement by myself
sidelined writes: Good point. He sends his only son {not including the sons of God from the old testament} which is in reality God himself according to trinity hypothesis. Then he sacrifices his son {actually himself} through a blod sacrifice. It seems that you agree with the trinity part but I was stating that you had the problem with the part about God having more than one son and that you would probably say that these were not sons of God but of men which is why I gave the verses from the bible to back it up.
The most important part of the entire cross scene was the three hours that God the Father and God the Son was separated when Jesus took my sin upon Himself SO God bleeds his own self through Jesus to pay for the sins that were transgressed upon himself by that which He created? Add you have no problem with that scenario or logic? No taking a step back and asking... WTF?
Had the blood not been shed He would not have died then He would not have been buried, then there would be no resurrection. You have yet to explain How blood somehow has the property of removing "sins" and now you also have to explain the logic of how {1} a resurrection seems to be likely and how,{2} the resurrection needs blood in order to make it possible. You still cannot see how this sounds no different than a leader of some remote primitive tribe saying to me that he can raise the dead or curse me from afar or bring famine upon my family? It is primitive superstition and the real world does not work that way.
Thus I would not have victory over death, hell and the grave. Now as far as how that would satisfy God I have to take Gods word for it. You don't have victory over the grave. You shall enter it just the same as all of all us do. And hell is not real never existed, was a scare tactic proposed by primitive men to cower other primitive men of just a little less brain power. I cannot imagine what possible flight of fancy allows grown people to buy into such drivel nor has any evidence other than claims by ancient texts written by men ever been produced to back up these claims. Just because it is written by men does not mean it ever happened. Have you anything that is tangible, reasonable on its face, or does not sound like the babbling of primitive medicine men to support your assertions?
Well I am made in God's image. And I am one. There will come a time when my physical part dies that the intelligence and the Spirit will be separated from the body and be in different places. God the Father is all intelligence and knowledge. He is not limited as to where He can be.God the Son, Jesus is God in the flesh. Jesus is limited to being in one place, wherever He is at. God the Holy Spirit has sealed every spirit that has been born again. He is not limited as to where He can be. So all three can be doing different jobs in different places and all still be in the same place. These are easy words to claim but as in Shakespeares play Henry VI
Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call them? Just because the claim is made and you have faith when there is no evidence for that which leaves no trace does not make it so and indeed would put it ,except for the stubbornness of deeply held belief, squarely in the same realm as no reality whatsoever. [sigh] Imagine my skepticism...
I did not say that was the only function. I said this is where it comes into play. You can use your freewill to either accept or reject that is entirely up to you. Can freewill be used to make choice concerning other things definitely. I exercised mine this morning and decided I was not going to get up until 9 AM. A previously intended action is not the same as freewill in the moment my friend. Read up on the experiments performed by Benjamin Libet here Benjamin Libet - Wikipedia or check out the BBC lectures from V.S. Ramachandran at this site here BBC - Radio 4 - Reith Lectures 2003 - The Emerging Mind and see if you have a clearer idea of just how uncertain the issue of freewill or even the sense of self is.
That is you exercising your freewill to believe what you want to believe. I got no problem with that. In fact I was a part of the 3rd Army infantry division so Americans could have that privilege. Well thank you for the effort since I am sure you also were thinking of us Canadians at the same time. The matter is not based upon the choosing of or acceptance that leads me reject the biblical myths but simply a skepticism that leads me to the conclusion that there is no good evidence in favour of the assertions it makes. Edited by sidelined, : No reason given. "Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere." Albert Einstein
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Granny Magda Member (Idle past 287 days) Posts: 2462 From: UK Joined: |
Hi Purpledawn. I agree with you completely. I should make clear that since I am debating ICANT, it is his concept of damnation that I have been concentrating on. I'm interested in pointing out some of the innate flaws in his model of hell and original sin. I'm also interested to hear how folks who believe in both hell and a loving god manage to square the circle.
Mankind created Hell just like all the other boogey men created to scare people into line. No argument here. Hell is a nasty concept,one that has caused a great deal of anguish and mental illness over the centuries. That it is based on a mistranslation just makes it worse. Whatever your angle, it needs to be taken on. Mutate and Survive
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
ICANT Member (Idle past 277 days) Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: |
Hi sidelined,
sidelined writes: The matter is not based upon the choosing of or acceptance that leads me reject the biblical myths but simply a skepticism that leads me to the conclusion that there is no good evidence in favour of the assertions it makes. Like I said I got no problem with that.
sidelined writes: You have yet to explain How blood somehow has the property of removing "sins" and now you also have to explain the logic of how {1} a resurrection seems to be likely and how,{2} the resurrection needs blood in order to make it possible. This is God's experiment.He makes the rules. He performs the tests. Makes no difference how much we disagree. So when you meet Him take it up with Him. Until then, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
sidelined Member (Idle past 6157 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
ICANT
This is God's experiment. He makes the rules. He performs the tests. Makes no difference how much we disagree. According to whom?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
ICANT Member (Idle past 277 days) Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: |
Hi sidelined,
sidelined writes: According to whom? Isai 45:6 (KJV) That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. 8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it. 12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. Have fun, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
sidelined Member (Idle past 6157 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
ICANT
Isai 45:6 (KJV) That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. 8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it. 12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. You cannot use the Bible {written by men such as Isaiah} as evidence of God because that is what they are trying to convince you of in their writings in the first place. In other words what makes us sure or even suspicious that Isaiah has authority to speak of God when the book of Isaiah is written by him. After all let us not forget that Isaiah also wrote this obviously flawed and impossible scenario in verse 38:8
Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down. If he can be so wrong in this statement why would we trust him on other matters? Edited by sidelined, : No reason given. Edited by sidelined, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Force Inactive Member |
bump
Edited by tthzr3, : No reason given. Thank you
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Force Inactive Member |
GM,
I am not saying that you do want to become a God because there is no such thing. LOL. Thank you
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Tal Member (Idle past 5926 days) Posts: 1140 From: Fort Bragg, NC Joined: |
I am not saying that you do want to become a God because there is no such thing. LOL. Your faith is strong. We never seem to acknowledge that we have been wrong in the past, and so might be wrong in the future. Instead, each generation writes off earlier errors as the result of bad thinking by less able minds-and then confidently embarks on fresh errors of its own. --Michael Crichton
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3706 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
So given what you quoted from Isaiah 45, why does Christianity perpetuate the myth that Hell is eternal punishment for not believing?
The Bible does support that God is considered just, but the idea that people go to Hell for lack of belief doesn't come across as just since God also creates evil and disaster. Tough love is understandable since humans must do the same from time to time, but the idea that one goes to Hell for lack of belief is not just and I don't see it supported in the Bible. Hell is associated with our actual actions and it's not eternal.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
ICANT Member (Idle past 277 days) Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: |
Hi sidelined,
quote: sidelined writes:
If he can be so wrong in this statement why would we trust him on other matters? What is wrong with that statement? Have fun, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18633 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.3 |
We were talking in chat, the other day...and the issue came up:
If a human, (who is not as loving and just as God) sees that a horse has become crippled and is in pain, we will "put the animal down" or shoot them dead as an act of mercy. Why, then, would not God (who is infinitely more merciful than a human) allow an unbeliever the option of ceasing to exist rather than eternal Hell and Torment? It certainly makes no sense to me why eternal torment is the only other option besides surrender and trust in Christ.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
ICANT Member (Idle past 277 days) Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: |
Hi PD,
purpledawn writes: So given what you quoted from Isaiah 45, why does Christianity perpetuate the myth that Hell is eternal punishment for not believing? I have no idea purpledawn. In several messages I said man goes into eternal punishment because of the first man's disobedience.
Message 102 my first message in this topic to Phat.
Message 116 Message 129 Message 133 purpledawn writes: Hell is associated with our actual actions and it's not eternal. As shown in messages above you are sentenced to the lake of fire because of the first man's disobedience. He was kicked out of God's estate and you have no claim to God's estate. Why is it not eternal? God is eternal and you are made in His image. What makes you think you can burn up. That flesh body you have could be but the mind and the spirit could not be and the new body you get at the resurrection can't be either.
Gene 1:27 (KJS) So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Isai 40:28 (KJV) Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding. God is eternal.You are eternal. The lake of fire is eternal. Reve 20:10 (KJV) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever purpledawn it really sounds like it is eternal to me. But you believe whatever makes you comfortable. It really doesn't make any difference what God says does it? Have fun, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
ICANT Member (Idle past 277 days) Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: |
Hi Phat,
Phat writes: allow an unbeliever the option of ceasing to exist rather than eternal Hell and Torment? Phat can God cease to exist? Have fun, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
sidelined Member (Idle past 6157 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
ICANT
ICANT writes: What is wrong with that statement? Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down. What must occur physically in order for the shadow on the sundial to move backward ten degrees? Edited by sidelined, : No reason given.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024