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Author Topic:   Religion v Spirituality
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 16 of 161 (449202)
01-17-2008 5:07 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by BMG
01-17-2008 4:44 AM


Re: "My" two cents
Infixion writes:
This reminds me of what a World Religions professor of mine claimed that spirituality was: something that is in all of us; a "fire of restlessness", a burning and unsettling feeling that there are things that we have yet to understand, and may never quite grasp(the classic being, what is the meaning to life?).
How's that different from curiosity or wanderlust?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by BMG, posted 01-17-2008 4:44 AM BMG has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-17-2008 9:11 AM Larni has replied
 Message 33 by BMG, posted 01-17-2008 2:49 PM Larni has not replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 17 of 161 (449206)
01-17-2008 5:48 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Larni
01-17-2008 3:31 AM


Knowable spirituality
I don't believe I have a physical organ called hate!
larni writes:
All these are physical and have physical indicators that can be measured (often by me) in the course of psychological assessments.
If you believe psychological is physical, there's no point, is there?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Larni, posted 01-17-2008 3:31 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Larni, posted 01-17-2008 7:24 AM pelican has replied
 Message 138 by Jaderis, posted 02-24-2008 5:12 AM pelican has not replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 18 of 161 (449208)
01-17-2008 5:59 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Larni
01-17-2008 3:36 AM


Re: A Matter Of Perspective
You experience the unseen energy as a physical feeling but they themselves are not a physical organ within the body. They do not exist physically otherwise we would be able to see them. The fact that we can only observe them from a feeling proves they are not physical.
If mine is an example of woowoo thinking, what kind of thinking confuses the physical with non-physical?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Larni, posted 01-17-2008 3:36 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Larni, posted 01-17-2008 7:29 AM pelican has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 19 of 161 (449210)
01-17-2008 6:01 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Larni
01-17-2008 3:36 AM


thinking of thinking
You experience the unseen energy as a physical feeling but they themselves are not a physical organ within the body. They do not exist physically otherwise we would be able to see them. The fact that we can only observe them from a feeling proves they are not physical.
If mine is an example of woowoo thinking, what kind of thinking confuses the physical with non-physical?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Larni, posted 01-17-2008 3:36 AM Larni has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 20 of 161 (449219)
01-17-2008 7:24 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by pelican
01-17-2008 5:48 AM


Re: Knowable spirituality
Heinrik writes:
I don't believe I have a physical organ called hate!
Nor do I. Nice that we agree.
Heinrik writes:
If you believe psychological is physical, there's no point, is there?
When we experience hate (or any emotion) our bodies undergo physical/behvioural/cognitive changes that we can measure. This is the realm of science not 'spirit'.
Still waiting for your definition of spirit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by pelican, posted 01-17-2008 5:48 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by pelican, posted 01-17-2008 7:46 AM Larni has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 21 of 161 (449220)
01-17-2008 7:29 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by pelican
01-17-2008 5:59 AM


Re: A Matter Of Perspective
Heinrik writes:
The fact that we can only observe them from a feeling proves they are not physical.
If I understand you correctly you are saying that the energy changes we percieve with our senses are non physical and thus fit a concept of 'spirit'.
If this is the case you are wrong. E=MC2. Energy/Matter, Matter/Energy.
Energy is not spirit.
Btw: lets drop the woohoo thinking. I should not have used it and would hate for us to get hung up on it.
Edited by Larni, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by pelican, posted 01-17-2008 5:59 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by pelican, posted 01-17-2008 7:48 AM Larni has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 22 of 161 (449221)
01-17-2008 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Larni
01-17-2008 7:24 AM


Re: Knowable spirituality
The body may well undergo physical changes because of an emotional reaction, but it still does not the make the emotion physical. All emotion is non-physical.
Do you think hate or do you feel it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Larni, posted 01-17-2008 7:24 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Phat, posted 01-17-2008 8:16 AM pelican has replied
 Message 25 by Larni, posted 01-17-2008 8:44 AM pelican has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 23 of 161 (449223)
01-17-2008 7:48 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Larni
01-17-2008 7:29 AM


Re: A Matter Of Perspective
Energy and matter are two different things. One may not exist without the other but it doesn't make them the same.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Larni, posted 01-17-2008 7:29 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Larni, posted 01-17-2008 8:53 AM pelican has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 24 of 161 (449227)
01-17-2008 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by pelican
01-17-2008 7:46 AM


Re: Knowable spirituality
Heinrik writes:
The body may well undergo physical changes because of an emotional reaction, but it still does not the make the emotion physical. All emotion is non-physical.
Have you not heard of Wilhelm Reich, Alexander Lowen, and Bioenergetics?
There is most definitely a thing as Psychophysical reactions to emotional events.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by pelican, posted 01-17-2008 7:46 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Larni, posted 01-17-2008 9:14 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 38 by pelican, posted 01-17-2008 7:32 PM Phat has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 25 of 161 (449231)
01-17-2008 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by pelican
01-17-2008 7:46 AM


Re: Knowable spirituality
Heinrik writes:
Do you think hate or do you feel it?
You think hateful thoughts.
These trigger noradrenaline, adrenaline to pass into the blood stream and begin the fight or flight reaction. In the case of hate there are cognitions around the hated object (normally revolving around the removal of the physical sensations (autonomic arousal) the hated object triggers).
Then action is selected to remove the autonomic arousal.
If the action is successful in removing the autonomic arousal the negative cogntions stop; along with the production of the noradrenaline etc.
Then the body goes back to a rest state.
Try looking up the 'Four Systems Model of Emotion'. The above is a very truncated version of that.
So the answer is: both and more besides. Emotion is complex but to write it off as 'spirit' is to stop trying to understand it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by pelican, posted 01-17-2008 7:46 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by pelican, posted 01-17-2008 7:06 PM Larni has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 26 of 161 (449232)
01-17-2008 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by pelican
01-17-2008 7:48 AM


Re: A Matter Of Perspective
Heinrik writes:
Energy and matter are two different things.
Did you miss my reference to e=mc2
Mass—energy equivalence - Wikipedia
Still waiting for a difinition of spirit that is not bogus.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by pelican, posted 01-17-2008 7:48 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by pelican, posted 01-17-2008 7:24 PM Larni has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 27 of 161 (449236)
01-17-2008 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Larni
01-17-2008 5:07 AM


Re: "My" two cents
it isn't, really. that's the point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Larni, posted 01-17-2008 5:07 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Larni, posted 01-17-2008 9:13 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 28 of 161 (449237)
01-17-2008 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by macaroniandcheese
01-17-2008 9:11 AM


Re: "My" two cents
Then to use the world spiritual as a shorthand for curiosity and wanderlust inappropriate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-17-2008 9:11 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-17-2008 9:20 AM Larni has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 29 of 161 (449238)
01-17-2008 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Phat
01-17-2008 8:16 AM


Re: Knowable spirituality
Phat writes:
Have you not heard of Wilhelm Reich, Alexander Lowen, and Bioenergetics?
Not sure whether these ideas are on the level, Phat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Phat, posted 01-17-2008 8:16 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 30 of 161 (449239)
01-17-2008 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Larni
01-17-2008 9:13 AM


Re: "My" two cents
no, it isn't. curiosity (that is excessive curiosity) and wanderlust are subset of that which makes up spirituality. just like christianity isn't the sum total of religion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Larni, posted 01-17-2008 9:13 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Larni, posted 01-17-2008 10:00 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
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