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Author | Topic: The Evolution of God (Before Genesis 1:1) | |||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Great J writes: ... a strong wind came from heaven and filled the house... There was no wind. It was a sound like wind:
quote: ... AND tounges of fire descended on each of the disciples. There was no fire. There were tongues like fire:
quote: The mundane images of wind and fire were used to describe an unearthly, unknown phenomenon.
a) holy spirit is energy--all sorts of energy, from fire, from wind, etc. Much as you have tried to drag the Holy Spirit down to the level of measurable energy, that's not what the Bible says.
Not only ordinary energy but one that can impart intelligence as in ability to instanteously speak foreign tounges. There's no indication that there was any "intelligence" imparted. The story suggests that the Spirit spoke through the disciples, not that it "taught" them different languages. Are you familiar with the speaking-in-tongues phenomenon at all? Typically, the speaker doesn't know what he/she is saying and retains no knowledge of the "language".
c) that event was witnessed by opposing parties, and not one of them disputed the phenomena. d)unable to explain the whole phenomena, one party accused the other of being drunk. Those two statements are contradictory. The ones who suspected drunkenness certainly were disputing the "phenomenon". “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Great J writes: I think the plain meaning--no need of reconstruction--is there was a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind and it filled all the house. That's right, a sound like a wind, not an actual wind.
Sounds an awesome energy force to me. Awesome, probably, but an "energy force", no. Both force and energy (not the same, by the way) can be detected and measured. That would make it far less awesome. There is nothing in the text to suggest that it there was any detectable "energy". You're making that part up.
But, what I said was spirit=energy. [...] I never said measurable. Did I? Energy is measurable.
I cited Genesis 1:1,Isaiah 40:26, Acts 2:1-13 BTE, as my source. Nothing in Genesis 1:1-2 backs you up:
quote: Neither does Isaiah:
quote: Neither does Acts, as I have already shown. There is nothing in any of those passages to suggest that spirit = energy.
quote: My familiarity is of no value. So I guess that's a "no". The reason I asked was because you claimed that there was some kind of "intelligence" imparted. That's wrong. Speaking in tongues, as in Acts, is more like the Holy Spirit using a person as a puppet. There's no intelligence involved.
1. Both parties did not dispute the OCCURENCE of the phenomena of the strong wind and the sudden ability of the disciples to speak foreign tongues. That's not what it says, though:
quote: The "others" mocked the phenomenon. They wouldn't have mocked if they had heard it themselves, would they? So apparently they didn't believe that the others had heard anything either.
2. What they could not explain /or agree was the CAUSE(s) of these phenomena. But they did explain it - as drunkenness. It isn't particularly important to the discussion. It's just an illustration of how you see what you want to see in the text instead of what's really there. “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Great J writes: If a non-moving thing like a house, a chair, etc, moves was there a force or energy applied or none? If an object moves, we look for a natural force.
why did the writer write rushing mighty wind and filled the house if there was no movement in that house at all? The writer wrote that there was a sound and that the sound was like a wind. There is simply nothing in the text to suggest that there was any movement in the house.
Perhaps you did not check my original post. My reference on Genesis 1:1-2 was BTE where it is specifically mentioned that spirit of God=Power of God. First, your reference is in Message 18, not the OP. Second, a footnote is just somebody's opinion. It has no bearing on the meaning of the text. Third, it has already been explained to you that the "power of God" doesn't mean power in the sense that it's used in physics.
And Bible translators agree that spirit = power. You haven't shown that. You've shown the footnote-opinion of one translator and you've misunderstood what "power" means in the literary sense as opposed to what "power" means in the scientific sense.
Of course, you can not find the word "energy" in these bible passages because remember it was written long time ago, when the word "energy" was not yet known. Or.. they didn't say "energy" because they didn't mean "energy".
Oh by the way, do the stars release power ( energy) or not? I don't think you'll find anywhere where the Bible says they do.
Are you saying that speaking in foreign tongue does not require intelligence? Yes. That's the whole point. It's the Holy Spirit speaking, not the ventriloquist's dummy. Remember Balaam's ass?
quote: If an ass can speak in tongues, how much intelligence is required? “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Great J writes: A rushing mighty wind that filled the house, and no movement at all. For @#$% sake, not another @#$%ing @#$hole who doesn't know what a simile is. Here's the quote again:
quote: There was a SOUND. It was AS OF a rushing mightly wind. It was like the sound of the tornado in The Wizard of Oz - the SOUND of a wind, not an actual wind in your house when you watch the movie. Similarly, there were cloven tongues like fire:
quote: Notice the similarity to the burning bush?
quote: The Holy Spirit is described as being like wind and like fire because those were mysterious forces to the ancient Hebrews. The Holy Spirit is supposed to be mysterious. If we understand wind and fire better today, that's all the more reason to not think of the Holy Spirit in those terms. I am really not going to get into elementary school English with you. For @#$% sake, learn what a figure of speech is.
And, that somebody's opinion by the way, is just from the masters of their own field--the bible scholars/ translators. Well, no it isn't. It's the opinion of one translator. Since it's only a footnote and not in the text itself, apparently even that one translator understood that the word shouldn't be translated that way.
The Bible writers, by the way, did not study physics. They observed that in their physical world if something moves it must have been caused by Power. And they attributed those movements to supernatural powers, not observable energies.
I thought man has free will, the right to say yes or no. You really have no clue about the speaking-in-tongues phenomenon, do you? The standard thinking, as I understand it, is that a person has to be willing before the Holy Spirit will speak through him/her. They have already said yes to being used as a puppet.
And, I really thought that man's intelligence is different from an ass. The Balaam story illustrates how your thinking is wrong. God spoke through the ass the same way He spoke through the disciples. That should indicate to you that intelligence isn't the issue. Did you seriously think that the Holy Spirit taught the disciples to speak those languages? Where do you see that in the text?
If you don't agree, then we'll never be on the same page. The trouble is that you're not reading the page at all. You haven't looked above the footnotes. When you read the Bible, you have to look at the actual text, not just sneak a peek at the answers in the back of the book. “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Great J writes: Are figures of speech--simile, metaphor, personification,etc.--USUALLY used in reporting an actual incident, or are these usually used in literary pieces like prose or poetry? The fact is that it is a simile. Do you know of a single translation that doesn't translate it as a simile?
In effect you are saying that there was a SOUND. How was the SOUND described by the writer? Like a rushing mighty wind. Is my understanding correct? That much is blindingly obvious. The table lamp understands that much. The potted plant in the corner understands that much.
a) Did the angel of the LORD appear like FIRE? OR b) the angel appeared to Moses in a bush that was burning with FIRE but was not being consumed? It was obviously like fire only in the sense that it looked like fire. It was not fire because it didn't behave like fire - it didn't consume fuel.
Either way, is fire in everyday language not a form of ENERGY, or is it? We're not talking about everyday language. We're talking about the language in the Bible, which is obviously a figure of speech.
Is it your understanding that to the ancient Hebrews "wind" is not capable of moving things, and that "fire" is not capable of cooking? Again, we're not talking about the everyday use of the words. We're talking about how they were used in the Bible. The wind in Acts didn't move anything and the fire didn't cook the disciples. The fire that Moses saw didn't cook the bush. There is no mention of energy transfer of any kind in either story. That ought to be your first clue that the writers were not talking about any earthly energy.
Have you considered the possibility that for a person to be willing ( to give his consent) he has to use his intelligence? Of course I've considered that. Why do you think I brought up the story of Balaam's ass? The phenomenon was the same, but you can't attribute the same intelligence to the ass. Therefore, intelligence is not a factor.
For God to use his power ( the holy spirit) to make puppet of persons, is this not a violation of his respect for their free will? Already answered. No. Not if they are willing to temporarily surrender their will to Him.
Have you considered that? Of course I have. This isn't something I'm making up as I go along. It's the belief of people who believe in tongues. Please do some research on the subject and stop asking off-topic questions about it.
I read the page, I just don't understand it the way you WANT me to understand it. I don't give a flying @#$% how you understand it or if you understand it. I'm just hoping there's nobody out there dumber than a potted plant who can't see a simile staring him in the face and thinks there's something to what you're saying.
Is not the word "Power" synonymous to "force" or "energy"? Not in every case. Not in this one.
Since you violated the rules, you lost. Agree? When I break the rules, you'll see a little "suspended" notice by my name. (That too is a figure of speech.) “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Great J writes: quote: That is your assertion. No. That's the way the translators translated it. They considered it a simile. Argue with them.
Whether it was wind or sound doesn't matter anymore. Sound is energy. Wind is energy. No. Sound is not energy in the minds of the Bible writers. If you think it is, show us examples in the Bible where sound is supposed to have "power".
That acccount says that Moses saw a bush that was being burned by fire. However, when he took a closer look, why the bush wasn't burning at all! ) That's what it says, pretty clearly - that it wasn't real, earthly fire because it didn't consume anything.
(1) Is it your understanding that there is ALWAYS a conflict between how words are used by bible writers, and how we understand these words today (2) There is no conflict at all, (3) There are some conflicts like the case in point--the words "fire" and "wind". I didn't say anything about "conflict" between what the Bible writers meant and what we understand today. I said that you obviously misunderstand. When they use figures of speech, you want to take them literally.
The disciples gave their consent--which means they used their intelligence-- to be used as spokesperson of God. No. They gave their consent for God to do whatever He wanted. They didn't use their intelligence, they gave it up, temporarily. They willingly became as unintelligent as an ass - or a burning bush - so that God could speak through them. No intelligence required.
Again, the belief of people who believe in tongues doesn't matter. It is what was written that matters. And yet you continue to ignore what is written. Why not drop the arrogant attitude and read what other people think?
Can't we have a little respect for the rules, please? If you have a problem with the rules, there's a whole forum for that. “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Great J writes: I haven't read a bible translator say that Act 2:1-3 was a simile. Yes you have. You've seen where they put in the word "as". That makes it a simile. In case you missed it, here it is again:
quote: why don't you argue with the translators of Gen 1:1, BTE, when they wrote that spirit = power? As I've already said, they didn't write it into the text, only into a footnote. They're quite welcome to write black=white in a footnote if they want. I'm only talking about what's in the text.
However, the way that the event--that powerful strong sound--was described gives honest readers the unmistakable understanding that there was a lot of energy generated in that event. Well, roll out those "honest readers" then. Show us anybody who agrees with your idea that there was a lot of "energy" generated in the event. I think you'll find that almost everybody agrees there was spiritual power, not physical energy.
Keep in mind the formula. spirit=power=energy. No. That formula was thrown out long ago. You've been shown six ways from Sunday how it's wrong.
The more reasonable one is this: their minds or intelligence were vastly improved by the power of God ( the holy spirit) to speak foreign tongues. Again, show us anybody who agrees with you, if it's "more reasonable", as you claim. I asked you before and you didn't answer: Do you believe the disciples learned those foreign languages on the spot? Do you believe they could still speak those languages hours later, days later, months later? I've seen the speaking-in-tongues phenomenon hundreds of times and I've never once come across a person who knew what they had said or could repeat it later. Do some research. Ignorance is curable.
To say that the holy spirit just moved their jaws up and down and their tongues to swirl and spit out foreign language is a bit of an idiotic stretch. Then don't make it. There's nothing in the text about jaws moving or tongues swirling or spitting. “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Great J writes: Some have explained the phenomena of the burning bush as St. Elmo's fire. But, even so St. Elmos' fire is a form of energy. Since the Bible specifically states that the "fire" did not consume the bush, we know it could not have been real earthly fire. There was no change from chemical energy to heat energy. Clearly, there was no earthly energy involved.
In the language of the Bible--to which my good friend Ringo probably agree--is that God's spirit [or energy] is mysterious. I'm the one who brought up the "mysterious" aspect. The Holy Spirit is supposed to be mysterious - it isn't just a wind or just a fire. It isn't just a guy with power tools. It's something unlike anything we observe and measure on earth. It is clearly not mundane "energy".
In my humble opinion, Science should not focus all its resources in PROVING or DISPROVING the existence of God. Well, goody goody for you with whipped cream and sprinkles - it doesn't. “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
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