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Author Topic:   Re: Substantiating The Validity Of Bible Prophecy
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 106 of 119 (344979)
08-30-2006 6:20 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by ReformedRob
08-30-2006 5:56 AM


Re: We'll review again...
quote:
... but you first stated the translation of the Torah i.e. Pentatuch was 200 BC
I did not. You were the one who suggested the 200 BC date, and you stated it as a bound - not the actual date that the translation was done. And that date was based on th letter of Aristeas which only refers to the translation of the Torah.
quote:
then you claim that Aristeas, is only talking about the Torah/Pentatuch which you have yet to prove
No, I quoted your own source as stating:
According to Aristeas, the Pentateuch was translated at the time of Philadelphus
The Pentateuch IS the Torah.
quote:
wrong again...Aristeas quoted Job which is not in the Torah/Pentatuch "Aristeas, the historian, quotes Job; a foot-note to the Greek Esther seems to show that that book was in circulation before the end of the second century B.C."
So in other writings Aristeas quotes Greek translatiosn of some other books. That does not change the fact that the letter refers only to the Torah. Thus I am not wrong at all.
The part you left out says all the books of the Old Testament were in the Septuagint and in COMMON USE 132 BC,
Yes, I left it out because it only provided weak support for my case. It does however establish that the article provides no support for the idea that Daniel had been translated by 200 BC, nearly 70 years earlier.
quote:
Because Septuagint containing all the books of the Old Testament including Daniel were translated into the Septuagint and common use by 132 BC and because Aristeas letter in 200 BC is given credit that "the tradition as to the origin of the Septuagint rests" it is reasonable that the Septuagint containing Daniel was translated around 200 BC. That's why I have been saying around 200 BC in my posts as in the last line of my previous post
The letter of Aristeas refers only to the Torah, this it does not help you. The only date you have which is relevant to Daniel is 132 BC. Thus it is not reasonable to claim that Daniel had been translated by 200 BC.
quote:
And , I did not cite a christian apologetic source, I cited a source from the University of Oslo that discussed the biases of the methodology of those who late date Daniel only because his accuracy of events,...you missed that.
No. The fact that a guy assciated with the University of Oslo makes a false claim in no way makes it true. If he repeats the usual falsehood of Christian apologists I conclude that he is a Christian apologist. And in fact he is not just an Christian apologist - he is an apologist for the Jehovah's Witnesses.
See http://user.tninet.se/~oof408u/fkf/english/furulirev1.htm
What Furuli does not mention is that he is a Jehovah’s Witness, and that for a long time he has produced apologetic texts defending Watchtower exegesis against criticism. His two books on Bible translation are nothing more than defenses of the Witnesses’ New World Translation of the Bible. He fails to mention that for decades he has tried to defend Watchtower chronology and that his revised chronology is essentially a defense of the Watchtower Society's traditional chronology

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by ReformedRob, posted 08-30-2006 5:56 AM ReformedRob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by ReformedRob, posted 08-30-2006 6:53 AM PaulK has replied

  
ReformedRob
Member (Idle past 5721 days)
Posts: 143
From: Anthem AZ, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006


Message 107 of 119 (344984)
08-30-2006 6:53 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by PaulK
08-30-2006 6:20 AM


Re: We'll review again...
paulk writes:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
... but you first stated the translation of the Torah i.e. Pentatuch was 200 BC
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I did not. You were the one who suggested the 200 BC date, and you stated it as a bound - not the actual date that the translation was done
You didn't? Explain this quote from your post to me then please
paulk writes:
The 200 BC date for the translation of the Septuagint refers only to the translation of the Torah, and not any other book
That's you saying saying the Torah was translated into the Septuagint in 200 BC!
PaulK writes:
The letter of Aristeas refers only to the Torah,
No it doesnt. The main focus in Aristeas' letter is the Torah but
other books are included.
"The Letter Of Aristeas
R.H. Charles-Editor
Oxford: The Clarendon Press, 1913
"The Memorial of Demetrius to the great king. 'Since you have given me instructions, O king, that the books which are needed to complete your library should be collected together, and that those which are defective should be repaired, I have devoted myself with the utmost care to the fulfilment of your wishes, and I now have the following proposal to lay before you. The books of the law of the Jews (WITH SOME OTHERS) are absent from the library. They are written in the Hebrew characters and language and have been carelessly interpreted, and do not represent the original text as I am informed by those who know; for they have never had a king's care to protect them. It is necessary that these should be made accurate for your library since the law which they contain, in as much as it is of divine origin, is full of wisdom and free from all blemish...
"'King Ptolemy sends greeting and salutation to the High Priest Eleazar...I have determined that your law shall be translated from the Hebrew tongue which is in use amongst you into the Greek language, that these books may be added to the other royal books in my library." (emphasis mine)
The Letter Of Aristeas
As for Furuli...I didnt know he was a Watch Tower apologist! Too bad, his analysis is correct but I'll have to find a different credible source for the same analysis.
The methdology of apriori assigning Daniel after Antiochus Epipanes due to his accuracy begs the question that we are discussing, prophecy, and reasons in a circle. The Higher Critical school offers no real evidence for dating it that late, violating the internal claims, except for the natural only/apriori methodology.
so we can agree then that Daniel was translated in the Septuagint after 285 BC and well enough before 132 BC as to be in common use right?
And you didnt respond to the fact that the silver portion of the statue and the bear and the ram with 2 horns is the second of the four kingdoms making Greece/Alexander the 3rd kingdom, the bronze portion of the statue and the leopard and goat, making Rome the fourth kingdom in Daniel 2 & 7. Does that mean you concede the point?
Edited by ReformedRob, : addtl quote
Edited by ReformedRob, : No reason given.
Edited by ReformedRob, : No reason given.

"...but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by PaulK, posted 08-30-2006 6:20 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by PaulK, posted 08-30-2006 8:18 AM ReformedRob has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 108 of 119 (345000)
08-30-2006 8:18 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by ReformedRob
08-30-2006 6:53 AM


Re: We'll review again...
The 200 BC date was YOUR date, and you expressed it as a bound. THe text you quote is a reference back to your claim.
quote:
As for Furuli...I didnt know he was a Watch Tower apologist! Too bad, his analysis is correct but I'll have to find a different credible source for the same analysis.
His "analysis" is a tired old falsehood. It isn't true. No credible source would say it, for that simple reason.
quote:
The methdology of apriori assigning Daniel after Antiochus Epipanes due to his accuracy begs the question that we are discussing, prophecy, and reasons in a circle.
Which is why I am instead referring to the REAL arguments for assigning a late date for Daniel. Which are not circular.
quote:
so we can agree then that Daniel was translated in the Septuagint after 285 BC and well enough before 132 BC as to be in common use right?
We can't even be sure of that. You'd need to show that Daniel was widely accepted it the Jewish canon at that point for the letter to even support that claim.
quote:
And you didnt respond to the fact that the silver portion of the statue and the bear and the ram with 2 horns is the second of the four kingdoms making Greece/Alexander the 3rd kingdom, the bronze portion of the statue and the leopard and goat, making Rome the fourth kingdom in Daniel 2 & 7. Does that mean you concede the point?
I did respond to it by pointing out that Daniel's Median Empire is a better fit for the second Empire and that the context of Daniel strongly supports the idea that the Greek Empire is the fourth. YOu didn't really answer my points.
But, OK consider Daniel 8. The vision is a "visoin of the time of the end" (8:17) so it should show all the Empires. And the last one it shows is that of the Greeks (8:8) and from one of them - sited towards the North West of Israel - comes the "little horn" - clearly Antiochus. If this is the "time of the end" where is Rome ? On the other hand if the Greek Empire is the 4th and last there is no problem.
Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by ReformedRob, posted 08-30-2006 6:53 AM ReformedRob has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 109 of 119 (345879)
09-01-2006 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by ReformedRob
08-28-2006 8:20 PM


Re: A more scholarly interpretation
RR writes:
The beast was Nero who was nicknamed the beast and whose name added up to 666 and in the latin texts 616.
The 10 horned (666) beast is not a man. It is a world government governed by 10 men/kings having authority over all nations, tongues and tribes of the earth as per Reverlation 13, 17, 18 and Daniel 7. It is a major topic of these texts. The person/antichrist is the 2nd beast of Rev 13 who exercises all the power of the world government/beast and causes all to worship the speaking image of the world government/beast (imo, likely monitored 2 way TV, i.e. speaking image where worship/prayer to the Muslim god Allah is required as it is in many places today.)
The ten horned beast government occupies seven hills/mounds/high places according to Rev 17:9 on which the harlot woman, Mystery Babylon sits. Imo since the beast government is global the 7 continents are the seven hills/high places/mounds on the planet and the one severely wounded and healed is Europe which was devistated/wounded in WWII and fully restored/healed. The city, Mystery Babylon described in 17 and 18 looks very much like Vatican City which has real estate on all continents, i.e. sits on them as per text (Neither Vatican City nor Rome, the city sits on what is known as the seven hills of Rome. Imo most prophecy teachers/preachers are wrong on this.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by ReformedRob, posted 08-28-2006 8:20 PM ReformedRob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by ReformedRob, posted 09-01-2006 10:57 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
ReformedRob
Member (Idle past 5721 days)
Posts: 143
From: Anthem AZ, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006


Message 110 of 119 (345893)
09-01-2006 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Buzsaw
09-01-2006 10:23 PM


Re: A more scholarly interpretation
I am familiar with your view and dont like dividing with other christians over eschatology. It's just that after investigating all the option the partial-preterist view comes up with the best exegesis IMO. and IMO the preterist view that the beast is an empire and the man. It is Rome at the time and Nero. And is clearly says 666 is the number of a man which Nero Ceasar adds up to (and in the latin texts 616 which the latin for Nero Caesar adds up to as well).
Nero was the last of the bloodline of the Caesars so when he was slain it was feared that Rome the empire was dead but it didnt die. The ten horns were the ten rulers of Rome.
This view also explains difficulties such as Revelations when John said "I am your brother with you in the tribulation" and passages in Matthew where Jesus tells the apostles that they wont finish going through all the cities before they see him again and that some of them wont die until he returns. The fulfillment is that the Jews were judged for rejecting Christ and Jesus came 'in the clouds with power' which is the same language used in the old testament for judgements against Babylon and Egypt.
The only time the term anti-christ is used is in I & II John but not in Revelations.
The harlot of Babylon is Jerusalem who adopted false religions just as Babylon did and the seven hills are Jerusalem which does literally sit on seven hills.
All this is my opinion of the most scholarly view. R.C. Sproul has a great book on this contrasting the views "The last days according to Jesus"
Gentry has the identification of the beast in a book that can be read on http://www.freebooks.com
David Chilton, the big daddy of Preterism also has two books that detail the analysis on freebooks.com

"...but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Buzsaw, posted 09-01-2006 10:23 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Buzsaw, posted 09-02-2006 4:24 PM ReformedRob has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 111 of 119 (346019)
09-02-2006 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
08-21-2006 11:42 PM


Buuzsaw
As for truce in Lebanon and the region around Israel,
as I understand the prophecies
, there will be one eventually established which will last about 3 1/2 years before Armageddon and then break down with an invasion of Jerusalem by Israel's enemies with the blessings and resolution of the UN. This is when the 2nd advent of Jesus occurs and the Armageddon happens with the Jerusalem defended but not before the city is invaded and with part of the city ravished and many killed or taken captive. At this time the Euphrates will be dried up and a huge army from the East, likely including China will move into the war. The enemies of Israel will become all be competing for dominance with them turing against one another. The slaughter will be greater of all these armies than anything in human history with the region littered with the dead of many nations.
I will choose this one for the fact that it is a prediction of a present situation in the world. By your assertion thenwe should be able to experience armeggedon by 2011 at the latest.
However, before we commit you to this, I have a request of you in order to remove a potential out on your part. The sentence I have highlighted in blue must be dropped. The reason being is that you are claiming that the prophecies are fact but in the future. By removing this sentence you cannot then say 4 years from now that you misread the scriptures. Either they are legitimate or they are garbage.
That said there is only the matter of waitng.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Buzsaw, posted 08-21-2006 11:42 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 112 of 119 (346020)
09-02-2006 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
08-21-2006 11:42 PM


Buuzsaw
As for truce in Lebanon and the region around Israel,
as I understand the prophecies
, there will be one eventually established which will last about 3 1/2 years before Armageddon and then break down with an invasion of Jerusalem by Israel's enemies with the blessings and resolution of the UN. This is when the 2nd advent of Jesus occurs and the Armageddon happens with the Jerusalem defended but not before the city is invaded and with part of the city ravished and many killed or taken captive. At this time the Euphrates will be dried up and a huge army from the East, likely including China will move into the war. The enemies of Israel will become all be competing for dominance with them turing against one another. The slaughter will be greater of all these armies than anything in human history with the region littered with the dead of many nations.
I will choose this one for the fact that it is a prediction of a present situation in the world. By your assertion thenwe should be able to experience armeggedon by 2011 at the latest.
However, before we commit you to this, I have a request of you in order to remove a potential out on your part. The sentence I have highlighted in blue must be dropped. The reason being is that you are claiming that the prophecies are fact but in the future. By removing this sentence you cannot then say 4 years from now that you misread the scriptures. Either they are legitimate or they are garbage.
That said there is only the matter of waitng.
Edited by Admin, : Test edit function, no changes made.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Buzsaw, posted 08-21-2006 11:42 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 113 of 119 (346044)
09-02-2006 1:46 PM


Test reply..

Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 114 of 119 (346046)
09-02-2006 1:46 PM


Test reply..

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 115 of 119 (346080)
09-02-2006 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Percy
09-02-2006 1:46 PM


Percy writes:
Test reply..
I see this brief message as edifying to the thread, but would you please elaborate a tad. Thanks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Percy, posted 09-02-2006 1:46 PM Percy has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 116 of 119 (346088)
09-02-2006 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by ReformedRob
09-01-2006 10:57 PM


Re: A more scholarly interpretation
RR writes:
I am familiar with your view and dont like dividing with other christians over eschatology.
Dividing of Christians? What about coming to the knowledge of the truth? It is by dialogue that The Holy Spirit effects Christians arriving to the knowledge of truth. The old cleshe, "iron sharpens iron" comes into play here.
RR writes:
It's just that after investigating all the option the partial-preterist view comes up with the best exegesis IMO. and IMO the preterist view that the beast is an empire and the man. It is Rome at the time and Nero. And is clearly says 666 is the number of a man which Nero Ceasar adds up to (and in the latin texts 616 which the latin for Nero Caesar adds up to as well).
Nero was the last of the bloodline of the Caesars so when he was slain it was feared that Rome the empire was dead but it didnt die. The ten horns were the ten rulers of Rome.
The problem with your interpretation here is that in the times of Nero there were not ten global powers/kings calling the shots. For example, Israel was not restored as a nation, a priortity event pertaining to events of the end times. It was not global as it is today and there are no collaborating prophecy events to substantiate your interpretation of the prophecy.
RR writes:
The harlot of Babylon is Jerusalem who adopted false religions just as Babylon did and the seven hills are Jerusalem which does literally sit on seven hills.
All this is my opinion of the most scholarly view. R.C. Sproul has a great book on this contrasting the views "The last days according to Jesus"
How about sticking to the book which gives the text from which we are to base our hypothesis if our goal is to interpret prophetic text?
According to the text, Jerusalem does not fit. Please advise specifically as per text if you wish to refute. Thanks. (Perhaps this is what Percy is alluding.)
RR writes:
Gentry has the identification of the beast in a book that can be read on http://www.freebooks.com
As Percy seems to suggest, lets, for the purpose of this thread sticK to Biblical text.
RR writes:
David Chilton, the big daddy of Preterism also has two books that detail the analysis on freebooks.com
Chilton -- Schmilton. Big daddy -- big paddy. The question is what does the text say.
Edited by Buzsaw, : Correct error
Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by ReformedRob, posted 09-01-2006 10:57 PM ReformedRob has not replied

  
imageinvisible
Member (Idle past 5918 days)
Posts: 132
From: Arlington, Texas, US
Joined: 12-03-2007


Message 117 of 119 (441444)
12-17-2007 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
08-21-2006 11:42 PM


one year later
2. and I notice on several occations this summer and fall that a good number of states in the US and even Astrailia were haveing some trouble finding enough water. From what I have read however it's not so much that there will be a lack of water (though there will be some decrease in this) but more to the point a decrese in the amount of drinkable water, [water that is not toxic] which seems to be a growing problem.
3. and I notice several things about the western world (US) The US dollar is the lowest it had ever been, we are not thought highly of amoung the other nations, and with the upcoming presidential election, we are looking at what may be our darkest hour to date. The future as far as the US is concerned looks far from bright.
4. as someone else pointed out this nuking you speek of my very well be aimed at america and not the Vatican city. As to communist nations that have the capability of doing so they are not limitted to Russia. There is China and North Korea amoung others. And as for radical islamic nations....America has made plenty of enemies on this front.
5. the 3.5 years of peace has yet to be established. As I read it, it will encompass the whole world not just Israel, but I am not an expert on prophacies. At any rate pray for peace in Israel.
(he who has ears to hear let him hear)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Buzsaw, posted 08-21-2006 11:42 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
imageinvisible
Member (Idle past 5918 days)
Posts: 132
From: Arlington, Texas, US
Joined: 12-03-2007


Message 118 of 119 (445394)
01-02-2008 3:19 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
08-21-2006 11:42 PM


Millions ascend; Mother Earth enters a clensing state
buzsaw writes:
3. I am prophecying on the basis of Biblical prophecy that the Western powers including the US will diminish in power and influence. Russia and the Islamic fundy nations of the Mid East and North Africa will emerge to be the predominant world influence and military powers of the world with the blessings and support of the UN. Western nations will be reduced to whining and complaining about what these powers are doing around the world.
I am actualy going to attempt to refute this statment in that it says fundimental Islam, which is, if you don't already know, being slowly irradicated. Along with fundimental christianity in most of the third world countries. I see three monotheistic (i.e. there is only one God) religious groups (Islam, Christianity, and Judeism) as being completely opposed (fundimentaly) to the one world religion mentioned in Bible prophacy. These three groups are, and this trend will only increase in coming years, being dichotomized between two groups. The fundimentals (orthodox) and the liberals. The liberals will band together in the interfaith movement which will ultimately lead to a one world religion. The fundimentalists of these religious groups will 'collectively' be labeled as terrorists, bad guys, or as being in opposition of peace and will subsequently be hunted down. At the very best they will be placed in concentration camps, at worst, slaughtered for their refusal to denounce their fundimental views. Right now it's just fundimental Islam that is being hunted down in almost every country. Soon after, either after the fundimental muslims are out of the way or close to being out of the way, fundimental christians will be next on the hit list. Once the fundimental christians are out of the way, or close to being out of the way, the world will set it's sights on the Orthodox Jew.
As to the US diminishing in power see messages 63 and 67 of this thread http://EvC Forum: Endtime Prophecy and the European Union -->EvC Forum: Endtime Prophecy and the European Union The links therein concern the establishment of the North American Union @ 2010, wherein the US will loss its soverienty as a nation and be religated to, most likely, a Communist state, and the american dollar will be replaced by the Amero. This could occur sooner due to the crash of the american dollar. These links also refer to the Europian Union the newly formed African Union and the preludes of an Asian Union. All of which will join into a one world government under a single currency; with all of the amenities. i.e. one army, one police force, and I haven't even gotten to the verichip yet.

Disclaimer: Topical discretion is advised.
This post may contain information, logic/reason exercises, and/or questions used to illustate what I base my logical conclusions on and to expond upon a particular idea. That information/etc. should not be debated in this thread, and any questions that do not fit the topic should not be answered in this thread. Many of these questions/etc. are retorical and/or are included to elicit a mental response not necessaraly a verbal (or in this case a literary) one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Buzsaw, posted 08-21-2006 11:42 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 119 of 119 (445398)
01-02-2008 4:24 AM


quote:
The currently accepted ages of the stars among astronomers are millions to billions of years old. Among creationists, however, the creation of the universe, which include the stars, only happened 6 thousand years ago.
I see with some amusement the above statement in the homepage. Obviously, there was very little, if any, investigation made before fronting up with such a statement.

  
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