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Author Topic:   Conclusion vs Presupposition
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1 of 94 (443522)
12-25-2007 2:59 PM


One allegation often made by ID supporters and Biblical Creationists is that what the evidence shows us is a matter of world view and that Evolutionists interpret things based on some presupposition of great age, and old earth.
I would like to discuss that and see if it can be defended, or if as most Evolution supporters claim, their position is an inescapable conclusion instead.
I would like to point to several recent examples as support of my position.
In the thread on Lake Varves we were discussing the Green River formation. In Message 44 I pointed out the following:
They can only settle on the bottom. That is what is so clear about this example. We have over 4,000,000 instances of a finer material being laid down followed by a slightly coarser layer then another finer layer, another coarser layer.
To get that fine a silt to settle out the water must be near still, followed by the more active flow to provide the slightly coarser layer, followed another quiescent period.
This is not sand but silt and we can deal with how to make silt after someone explains Thread How to make sand., but for now, you need to present the model that explains over 4 million layers of finer silt then coarser silt, lighter silt then darker silt.
So lets look at your 4 million catastrophic events. If it happened over the 6000 year period you have mentioned that is over 666 events a year, about two a day, every day right up through yesterday. Likely someone might have noticed.
In that case it also eliminates a flood during those 6000 years.
If it happened during the flood year it is about 11,000 repeating cycles a day or something over 450 such events every hour, more than seven every minute.
Now remember this is such fine silt that it will stay suspended unless the water is standing still for a considerable period of time.
So once again, what is your model for the 4 million plus alternating layers of finer and coarser, lighter and darker material?
In the Green River formation we find over 4 million (actually a recent oil shale drill core shows up to 20 million) layers that consist of darker and lighter, finer and coarser, repeated layers of silt.
Starting with just the fact that the layers exist, what possible information can be gained?
When we look around at the world we can find similar examples being created in lakes today. During spring and summer there are algae blooms that stain the silt a darker color followed by a winter period when the algae die off and a lighter color silt is deposited. We also see seasonal variations based on run off where periods of faster flow keep the finest silt suspended allowing only the coarser material to be deposited.
So the question is, simply based on the existing alternating layers found in the Green River deposits, what conclusions can be drawn?
Well we do see regular annual layers being created today, so there is an explanation for what is seen. However, if that is true then the conclusion, not presupposition, is that the Green River formation must equal a period of over 4 million years.
But that is a conclusion based on the data. It does not begin with the assumption of great age, rather the evidence leads to the conclusion of great age.
Let's consider a second recent example, the How to make sand..
In the thread we looked at the various ways that sand could be made. The conventional view is that first a mountain is made, then it is weathered, then the weathered material is transported and reduced until you get sand which is then deposited at some lower elevation. Again, we can see this happening today. We know that the conventional model is possible since we can observe it happening.
BUT...
it takes time to raise up a mountain, time to weather it, time to transport and reduce the material and then deposit it as sand. That is not a presupposition, it is a conclusion based on the evidence.
We also find, as shown in the Exploring the Grand Canyon, from the bottom up. that we can find examples of bedded schist (metamorphic sandstone) consisting of alternating layers of finer and coarser particles and located at the very lowest exposed layers of the Grand Canyon. Again, the conclusion is that sand was carried to the spot and deposited, in a series of events with faster and slower flow. The material was later buried to complete the process of changing from sandstone to schist.
Since this is the very lowest exposed layer, the Vishnu Schist, and there are many, many more layers with different composition above it, the conclusion is that it happened a long time ago. It happened long enough ago for mountains to be created, weathered, reduced, transported, deposited, buried and changed.
Again, age is not a presupposition but rather a conclusion.
The question is, where are the alleged presuppositions?

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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 6 of 94 (443931)
12-27-2007 3:37 PM


Bump to see if any of the folk that make such claims will speak up
Just a bump to see where all the folk always making such claims ran to?
It seems funny how in thread after thread the ID and Biblical Creation folk fail to support their assertions.
Could it be because their positions are unsupportable?

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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 10 of 94 (444698)
12-30-2007 12:47 PM


Still waiting for someone to show up
How are the conventional models the result of Pre-suppositions?

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 Message 11 by imageinvisible, posted 12-31-2007 5:38 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 12 of 94 (444985)
12-31-2007 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by imageinvisible
12-31-2007 5:38 PM


Re: Still waiting for someone to show up
Ergo, this presuposition states that there is or can be no supernatural intervention.
False. You will not get very far simply posting things that are false. I am a Christian who fully accepts Evolution therefore your assertion is proven false.
Please look at the examples posted and show where there are presuppositions.
The founding presupposition of evolutionism asserts that there is no God, without being able to prove that there isn't a God.
False. You will not get very far simply posting things that are false. I am a Christian who fully accepts Evolution therefore your assertion is proven false.
Again, please look at the examples posted and show where there are presuppositions.

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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 15 of 94 (445014)
12-31-2007 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by imageinvisible
12-31-2007 8:42 PM


Re: Still waiting for someone to show up
As I said, I am a Christian and I accept evolution and God.
You are refuted.
The Clergy Project Letter is currently signed by over 11,000 US Christian Clergy who accept Evolution.
You lose big time.
Now, as I asked before, where are the presuppositions in the examples included in Message 1?

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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 17 of 94 (445019)
12-31-2007 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by imageinvisible
12-31-2007 9:14 PM


Re: Still waiting for someone to show up
I have already answered as to where the suppositions are. You seem content on ignoring my answer because you seem the believe that majority rules equates to the truth. I am not the one in error, neither am I refuted. Your agrument is based souly on presupposed opinion and majority rules mentality. Even if I gave you facts you would not accept them because they over rule your presupposition, ergo you prove my point exactly.
Well lets examine it closely.
I look at the evidence and find that as a Christian I can see, understand and accept both God and the fact of Evolution. In addition I find that over 11,000 US Christian Clergy also accept God, the Bible, Evolution and that the Theory of Evolution is the best explanation for what is seen.
From those observations I can conclude that Evolution does not require a pre-supposition that there is no God since both one Christian I know intimately (myself) as well as over 11,000 US Christian Clergy all accept the existence of God as well as Evolution.
Where are the suppositions in this example.
Also I notice you did not address what pre-suppositions exist in the three examples in Message 1.

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 39 by Beretta, posted 01-02-2008 7:03 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 19 of 94 (445033)
12-31-2007 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by imageinvisible
12-31-2007 10:56 PM


Re: Still waiting for someone to show up
I still do not see any suppositions other than that the people who signed the Clergy Project Letter are not lying, and based on the facts that they did sign, that their names are public as well as their affiliations, I see no reason to suspect they are lying.
Is that your only point? The rest of your message is irrelevant as to whether or not what I posted is a conclusion. I listed the actual evidence and based on that evidence arrived at a conclusion.
It is possible that the physical evidence IS false, but if that is the case then it applies equally across the board and NOTHING, including the Bible can be considered factual.
And I notice you still did not address the three examples in Message 1. I listed the basis for my conclusions in Message 1 and the facts are as I laid them out. The conventional models do explain what is seen. So far no one, and I do mean no one, has been able to present models other than the conventional models that explain what is seen.
Uniformitarianism itself is not a presupposition, but rather an unavoidable conclusion based on what is seen. As shown in the examples in Message 1 the processes we see today will explain what is seen. For example in the Green River example we see annual varves being produced today that look exactly like those seen in the Green River cores.

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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 21 of 94 (445036)
12-31-2007 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by imageinvisible
12-31-2007 11:30 PM


Re: Still waiting for someone to show up
Is there something in those messages which has not already been addressed?

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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 25 of 94 (445148)
01-01-2008 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by imageinvisible
01-01-2008 1:40 AM


Re: Still waiting for someone to show up
So help me. What is it that has not been addressed?
Remember the topic is "Conclusion vs Presupposition."

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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 28 of 94 (445230)
01-01-2008 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by imageinvisible
01-01-2008 2:47 PM


Re: Supposition v conclusion
supposition 1. The research, which appears in this week’s edition of Science, counters the old view of geologists that mud only settles when water is placid, instead showing that “muds will accumulate even when currents move swiftly.”
The deposits are not mud, but silt. Very very fine silt.
AbE:
In addition you would still need to explain the repetitions, the over 4 million(actually over 20 million) repeating cycles. See Message 1
from msg 1 writes:
So lets look at your 4 million catastrophic events. If it happened over the 6000 year period you have mentioned that is over 666 events a year, about two a day, every day right up through yesterday. Likely someone might have noticed.
In that case it also eliminates a flood during those 6000 years.
If it happened during the flood year it is about 11,000 repeating cycles a day or something over 450 such events every hour, more than seven every minute.
Now remember this is such fine silt that it will stay suspended unless the water is standing still for a considerable period of time.
So once again, what is your model for the 4 million plus alternating layers of finer and coarser, lighter and darker material?
Edited by jar, : add info on repetitions.

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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 30 of 94 (445234)
01-01-2008 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by imageinvisible
01-01-2008 3:00 PM


Re: Supposition v conclusion
That still does not address the repetitions. You still need a model to explain over 4 million (actually over 20 million) repeating layers. As I pointed out in Message 1 and yet again in the very message you are responding to:
So lets look at your 4 million catastrophic events. If it happened over the 6000 year period you have mentioned that is over 666 events a year, about two a day, every day right up through yesterday. Likely someone might have noticed.
In that case it also eliminates a flood during those 6000 years.
If it happened during the flood year it is about 11,000 repeating cycles a day or something over 450 such events every hour, more than seven every minute.
Now remember this is such fine silt that it will stay suspended unless the water is standing still for a considerable period of time.
So once again, what is your model for the 4 million plus alternating layers of finer and coarser, lighter and darker material?
You need a model that explains those repetitive events.
The conventional model explains how to make annual layers, varves.
You need a model that can duplicate what we see produced as an annual varve. Then you need a model that will repeat what is seen at least 4 million times within whatever time frame you select.
Once you do that we will get you to explain how your model ALSO explains that we see the correlation with the 11 year sunspot cycle and the 21 thousand year orbital cycle.

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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 32 of 94 (445239)
01-01-2008 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by imageinvisible
01-01-2008 3:26 PM


Re: OP
In other words, you you cannot point out any presuppositions.

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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 34 of 94 (445242)
01-01-2008 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by imageinvisible
01-01-2008 3:46 PM


Re: OP
No, my OP asks what the presuppositions are and you still have not provided them. If I am mistaken then please provide the links to the messages where they were presented. It is certainly possible I missed them but if so, simply link to the messages and we can discuss them.
There are three such presuppositions, but the reasoning for them has already been addressed, see Message 5. Other than those three, what are the presuppositions?

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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 40 of 94 (445433)
01-02-2008 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Beretta
01-02-2008 7:03 AM


Re: Still waiting for someone to show up
Sorry but that is simply irrelevant to this thread. The topic in case you missed it is "Conclusion vs Presupposition" and the question is "In the three examples given in Message 1, exactly what presuppositions are used or required?
Do you plan on addressing the topic?

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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 48 of 94 (445532)
01-02-2008 6:59 PM


Topic Folk.
Let's try to correct this one fallacy before we try to address all the other lies creationists tell.
Edited by AdminPhat, : appalin spallin

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