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Author Topic:   Does evolution support intelligence driven design?
sinequanon
Member (Idle past 2864 days)
Posts: 331
Joined: 12-17-2007


Message 1 of 16 (443039)
12-23-2007 2:23 PM


As well as to humans, it is widely accepted that intelligence can be attributed to many other species.
If intelligent species use intelligence in the selection of sexual partners then intelligence is an evolutionary pressure along with other natural drivers.
Is this a form of intelligent design consistent with the Theory of Evolution?

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by RAZD, posted 12-23-2007 5:58 PM sinequanon has replied
 Message 5 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-23-2007 7:15 PM sinequanon has not replied
 Message 6 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-23-2007 8:04 PM sinequanon has replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 2 of 16 (443081)
12-23-2007 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by sinequanon
12-23-2007 2:23 PM


If intelligent species use intelligence in the selection of sexual partners then intelligence is an evolutionary pressure along with other natural drivers.
If.
That's a big if eh? Personally I think (human) selection is for creativity and increased brain capacity came along for the ride.
We can test for this by looking at what types of humans are considered most desirable sexual objects:
high IQ, university professors, nobel prize winners, nerds, etc,
OR
rock stars, dancers, movie stars, artists, cool, etc.
Comments?
Enjoy.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by sinequanon, posted 12-23-2007 2:23 PM sinequanon has replied

Replies to this message:
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sinequanon
Member (Idle past 2864 days)
Posts: 331
Joined: 12-17-2007


Message 3 of 16 (443088)
12-23-2007 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by RAZD
12-23-2007 5:58 PM


So creativity (which I think is a form of intelligence) is an evolutionary pressure. So we have creative design!
OK, perhaps not.
Creativity is being selected but not necessarily employed in the selection process.
But surely people do make intelligent decisions when choosing partners. It's not just instinct is it?
Edited by sinequanon, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-23-2007 7:14 PM sinequanon has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 4 of 16 (443106)
12-23-2007 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by sinequanon
12-23-2007 6:16 PM


But surely people do make intelligent decisions when choosing partners. It's not just instinct is it?
The sense in which they are designing their descendants when they do so seems rather tenuous. I might, I suppose, choose a red-haired wife in the hope (for whatever reason) of having red-haired children, but can it be said that in that case I designed my children? It seems an odd use of the word.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by sinequanon, posted 12-23-2007 6:16 PM sinequanon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by sinequanon, posted 12-24-2007 7:57 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 5 of 16 (443109)
12-23-2007 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by sinequanon
12-23-2007 2:23 PM


Is this a form of intelligent design
No, it is not a form of intelligent design.
(Nor, of course, is it a form of Intelligent Design.)
... consistent with the Theory of Evolution?
Yes, it's consistent with the theory of evolution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by sinequanon, posted 12-23-2007 2:23 PM sinequanon has not replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 16 (443131)
12-23-2007 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by sinequanon
12-23-2007 2:23 PM


Misunderstanding the argument
Is this a form of intelligent design consistent with the Theory of Evolution?
I don't believe it is because you seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding about what Intelligent Design is. It isn't a question of why intelligent creatures are intelligent as much as it is a question of whether or not a sentience is behind it all.
But then, it is entirely possible that I may be misinterpreting your OP. If so, please clarify your position for me.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by sinequanon, posted 12-23-2007 2:23 PM sinequanon has replied

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 Message 7 by sinequanon, posted 12-24-2007 7:54 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

sinequanon
Member (Idle past 2864 days)
Posts: 331
Joined: 12-17-2007


Message 7 of 16 (443248)
12-24-2007 7:54 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Hyroglyphx
12-23-2007 8:04 PM


Re: Misunderstanding the argument
But then, it is entirely possible that I may be misinterpreting your OP. If so, please clarify your position for me.
I deliberately used the phrase "intelligence driven design" rather than Intelligent Design, to avoid direct association.
Is intelligence involved in the process of selecting a sexual partner?
The idea is to consider whether intelligence involves "the mind" and to what extent the mind is considered a physical thing.

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 Message 6 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-23-2007 8:04 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by sidelined, posted 12-24-2007 8:07 AM sinequanon has replied
 Message 11 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-24-2007 8:34 AM sinequanon has not replied

sinequanon
Member (Idle past 2864 days)
Posts: 331
Joined: 12-17-2007


Message 8 of 16 (443251)
12-24-2007 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Dr Adequate
12-23-2007 7:14 PM


But intelligence was involved in the survival of the "red hair genetics" (forgive my terminology)?
So your "mind", rather than just your instinct, intervened in the evolution process?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-23-2007 7:14 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-24-2007 8:32 AM sinequanon has not replied

sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 9 of 16 (443253)
12-24-2007 8:07 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by sinequanon
12-24-2007 7:54 AM


Re: Misunderstanding the argument
sinequanon
The idea is to consider whether intelligence involves "the mind" and to what extent the mind is considered a physical thing.
So what you are actually needing the answer to is "To what extent is the mind considered a physical thing?" since this is necessary in order to answer the larger question of "Does intelligence involve the mind?" correct?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by sinequanon, posted 12-24-2007 7:54 AM sinequanon has replied

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 Message 12 by sinequanon, posted 12-24-2007 8:41 AM sidelined has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 10 of 16 (443259)
12-24-2007 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by sinequanon
12-24-2007 7:57 AM


But intelligence was involved in the survival of the "red hair genetics" (forgive my terminology)?
If someone has a good reason for wanting his offspring to have red hair, then marrying a red-haired woman would be an intelligent step to take towards that goal.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by sinequanon, posted 12-24-2007 7:57 AM sinequanon has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 11 of 16 (443261)
12-24-2007 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by sinequanon
12-24-2007 7:54 AM


Re: Misunderstanding the argument
The idea is to consider whether intelligence involves "the mind" and to what extent the mind is considered a physical thing.
Then perhaps you should have said so in your OP.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by sinequanon, posted 12-24-2007 7:54 AM sinequanon has not replied

sinequanon
Member (Idle past 2864 days)
Posts: 331
Joined: 12-17-2007


Message 12 of 16 (443265)
12-24-2007 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by sidelined
12-24-2007 8:07 AM


Re: Misunderstanding the argument
So what you are actually needing the answer to is "To what extent is the mind considered a physical thing?"
Eventually.
since this is necessary in order to answer the larger question of "Does intelligence involve the mind?" correct?
No. This can be answered whether or not the mind is considered a physical thing.

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 Message 9 by sidelined, posted 12-24-2007 8:07 AM sidelined has not replied

sinequanon
Member (Idle past 2864 days)
Posts: 331
Joined: 12-17-2007


Message 13 of 16 (443266)
12-24-2007 8:46 AM


Just to clarify. The thread is asking if intelligence is involved in evolution through the process of selection.
The context of the thread can be discussed as an addendum or in a seperate thread, once the main point has been answered.

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-24-2007 9:36 AM sinequanon has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 14 of 16 (443282)
12-24-2007 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by sinequanon
12-24-2007 8:46 AM


Just to clarify. The thread is asking if intelligence is involved in evolution through the process of selection.
Again, that is not what you asked in your OP, but the answer to this question is "yes".
It's called "artifical selection".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by sinequanon, posted 12-24-2007 8:46 AM sinequanon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by sinequanon, posted 12-24-2007 9:43 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

sinequanon
Member (Idle past 2864 days)
Posts: 331
Joined: 12-17-2007


Message 15 of 16 (443283)
12-24-2007 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Dr Adequate
12-24-2007 9:36 AM


Again, that is not what you asked in your OP...
RAZD answered it so that's a matter of opinion. I have clarified.
It's called "artifical selection".
Would you say it is confined to humans or could it apply to other species?
Edited by sinequanon, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-24-2007 9:36 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

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