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Author Topic:   Irreducible Complexity and TalkOrigins
wall-on-the-fly
Junior Member (Idle past 5947 days)
Posts: 2
From: VA
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 121 of 128 (441202)
12-16-2007 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by RAZD
12-16-2007 10:19 AM


Re: Let's consider this!
Thanks to all for the warm reception.
ps - if you haven't figured it out yet, type...
Thanks for the tip, RAZD.
Thus we should be able to develop a technique that can distinguish the design of DNA and test it with known modified plants and animals and bacteria.
This is intriguing. I think we're on the same page with this, but would you agree that our ability to recognize a modified genome is only made possible by our knowledge of genetic modification techniques? That is, in order to reasonably infer that modification has occurred, we would need to know the natural (normal) state, what conditions would be necessary for modification to occur, and if it's likely (or even possible) that someone could have made those modifications.
For example, say we found a glowing green mouse running around the house, and it has the gene for green fluorescent protein (GFP) identical to that found in aequorea. We might reasonably infer that it was genetically modified by having the GFP gene inserted into its genome, since no mice are naturally found with this gene and the technique is well known. However, we can't say the same thing about the jellyfish, since we have no experience of divine hands inserting genes into organisms in the wild.
In other words, we could conceivably test for human (or other intelligent) tinkering against a known, natural pattern, but I don't see yet how we could test the original pattern itself for signs of design. But I could be wrong...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by RAZD, posted 12-16-2007 10:19 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by RAZD, posted 12-17-2007 8:33 PM wall-on-the-fly has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 122 of 128 (441489)
12-17-2007 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by wall-on-the-fly
12-16-2007 6:21 PM


Re: Let's consider this!
For example, say we found a glowing green mouse running around the house, and it has the gene for green fluorescent protein (GFP) identical to that found in aequorea. We might reasonably infer that it was genetically modified by having the GFP gene inserted into its genome, since no mice are naturally found with this gene and the technique is well known. However, we can't say the same thing about the jellyfish, since we have no experience of divine hands inserting genes into organisms in the wild.
Exactly, and this also talks to ONE well known element of design when done by humans -- horizontal transfer into different lineages. One car gets a feature that is popular and next year all similar cars have that feature. Good design is spread across "species" suddenly in a manner that would disrupt phylogenetic trees.
Enjoy.

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This message is a reply to:
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 Message 123 by sinequanon, posted 12-19-2007 6:02 AM RAZD has replied

  
sinequanon
Member (Idle past 2865 days)
Posts: 331
Joined: 12-17-2007


Message 123 of 128 (441874)
12-19-2007 6:02 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by RAZD
12-17-2007 8:33 PM


Re: Let's consider this!
One car gets a feature that is popular and next year all similar cars have that feature. Good design is spread across "species" suddenly in a manner that would disrupt phylogenetic trees.
Couldn't what you are calling "similar" in cars correlate to "species" in life forms? Hence no spreading across species?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by RAZD, posted 12-17-2007 8:33 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Wounded King, posted 12-19-2007 6:20 AM sinequanon has replied
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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 124 of 128 (441876)
12-19-2007 6:20 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by sinequanon
12-19-2007 6:02 AM


Re: Let's consider this!
Are you suggesting that there might be horizontal transfer within species but not between species?
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by sinequanon, posted 12-19-2007 6:02 AM sinequanon has replied

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 Message 125 by sinequanon, posted 12-19-2007 7:25 AM Wounded King has not replied

  
sinequanon
Member (Idle past 2865 days)
Posts: 331
Joined: 12-17-2007


Message 125 of 128 (441883)
12-19-2007 7:25 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by Wounded King
12-19-2007 6:20 AM


Re: Let's consider this!
No. I was really only querying the logic of the analogy. What constitutes "similar" and "popular" in nature, and does that translate to "sudden horizontal transfer across species"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Wounded King, posted 12-19-2007 6:20 AM Wounded King has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 126 of 128 (441943)
12-19-2007 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by sinequanon
12-19-2007 6:02 AM


Re: Let's consider this!
Couldn't what you are calling "similar" in cars correlate to "species" in life forms? Hence no spreading across species?
Doesn't matter. Change is also not taken from one individual and then inserted into another, or retrofitted, the way it can be with human designed cars (options for radios for instance).
The point is that in known design we see this transfer occur horizontally from first development in one instance to other design lineages that have no previous developmental record of that design.
We do NOT see any such design transfer from one species (or variety) where it first occurred horizontally (ie not by hereditary descent) from that first development into other species (or varieties)that have no previous developmental record of that design.
There is no copying of design without heredity and common descent.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : No reason given.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by sinequanon, posted 12-19-2007 6:02 AM sinequanon has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Wounded King, posted 12-19-2007 12:45 PM RAZD has replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 127 of 128 (441962)
12-19-2007 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by RAZD
12-19-2007 12:01 PM


Re: Let's consider this!
Plasmids.
TTFN,
WK
P.S. Lets not forget the bacteria, they outnumber us after all. Maybe some caveat to specify you are thinking particularly of metazoans.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by RAZD, posted 12-19-2007 12:01 PM RAZD has replied

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 Message 128 by RAZD, posted 12-19-2007 3:09 PM Wounded King has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 128 of 128 (441996)
12-19-2007 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Wounded King
12-19-2007 12:45 PM


Re: Let's consider this!
Horizontal gene transfer would be one way design was transfered from one hereditary lineage {A} to another {B} without the second needing to evolve the trait.
To qualify as a design transfer you would need to show that it resulted in the same trait in lineage {B} as occurred in {A} at the level of the phenotype, ie - it would need to be expressed.
Thus a horizontal transfer of the genetics necessary for a flagellum to appear in a previously non-flagellum species would qualify.
The question is: is there a mechanism for ID to operate? I'd say there are a number of mechanisms that could be possibilities (mosquitos, germs, cancers, etc), but none of them show use.
And if we can only demonstrate such transferal in bacteria and the like, then that will tell us where the designer is interested ...
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, :

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we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Wounded King, posted 12-19-2007 12:45 PM Wounded King has not replied

  
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