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Author Topic:   No New Genetic Information?
Member (Idle past 265 days)
Posts: 673
Joined: 07-20-2006

Message 22 of 27 (440584)
12-13-2007 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by bernerbits
12-11-2007 2:51 PM

Proccesses that create information.
If new information cannot be created by a process that is wholly or partly random, such as Darwinian evolution, then it must only be created by strictly deterministic processes. But, by definition, a deterministic process is one for which the outcome is completely predictable from the input. If the output is completely determined by the input, then how can it contain new information - all the information it contains is implicit in that prior input. Thus, if new information is ever created, then it must be created by a process that is at least partially random!

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 Message 1 by bernerbits, posted 12-11-2007 2:51 PM bernerbits has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by mobioevo, posted 12-13-2007 7:42 PM AnswersInGenitals has replied

Member (Idle past 265 days)
Posts: 673
Joined: 07-20-2006

Message 25 of 27 (440663)
12-14-2007 12:56 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by mobioevo
12-13-2007 7:42 PM

Re: Proccesses that create information.
Mobio, please note that my post is in response to bernerbits opening post (#1), and not a response to anything you have said. In particular, it is a response to whoever bernerbits is referring to when he opens with "A popular counterclaim to evolution is the "No new genetic information" claim." I agree with everything in your post except your statement that "Evolution is not random." Darwinian evolution has two major components: random modifications combined with deterministic selection rules, so that it is partially random and partially deterministic (like the weather, election results, gambling outcomes, and lots of other common, everyday processes). This contrasts Darwinian evolution with some other proposed evolutionary processes, for example Lamarkian evolution which is thoroughly deterministic. (I realize that I am being somewhat simplistic here, but I think this is a valid description of the core concepts.)
When you say:
Is there evidence that new information has occurred? Yes, look at the divergence of genes from prokaryotes and then look at the genes in eukaryotes. There are more genes in eukaryotes. You can also look at the number of gene families in eukaryotes, which many, if not almost all, where created by gene duplications.
this is where the people bernerbits is referring to in his OP would disagree with you. Their point is precisely that the eukaryotes could not have evolved from the prokaryotes a la Darwin because they do have more genetic information and (according to them) DE, being (partially) random, cannot produce such information. What I am trying to argue, and I apologize for any lack of clarity, is that only random processes can produce information. The information contained in the consequences of deterministic processes is necessarily implicit in the prior conditions of the process and is not new.
The kind of challenges I was expecting to see to my assertions would, for example, question whether I am drawing a false dichotomy (trichotomy) when I limit processes to deterministic, deterministic+random, and random. Are there processes that don't fit any of these categories? In particular, is free will random, deterministic (which would make it not so free), a mix of the two, or some else entirely? An antagonist might also argue that their is no new information from any source since god knew everything that would or could happen since the instant of creation.
And, by the way, happy to see you back even if you have to start all over again as a junior member.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by mobioevo, posted 12-13-2007 7:42 PM mobioevo has not replied

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