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Author | Topic: Mummified hadrosaur evidence of recent global flood | |||||||||||||||||||||||
arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1375 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
It is the fossil of a hadrosaur which has been mummified, though to be more specific, the bones have been mineralised and the whole body is in an unusually excellent state of preservation, which includes skin and soft tissues. This find has recently been in the news because of the publication of a book by National Geographic, titled Grave Secrets of Dinosaurs: Soft Tissues and Hard Science. just an important clarification. they're calling it a "mummy" but the term has the wrong connotation. as you write, it is a fossil, and no soft tissue has been found -- just fossils: rocks and minerals in the shape of the hadrosaur.
Hovind claims that due to the rare preservation of skin and mummification, the creature had to be buried "very rapidly, in flash flood conditions." hovind is actually right in this part of the claim. it WAS buried very rapidly in flash flood conditions. however, the jump to "NOAH!" is completely disengenuous for any number of reasons.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1375 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
In terms of actual soft tissue, we really no very little about how much original material remains in this specimen. Most of the skeleton hasn't been prepared or directly studied yet. Claims as to what percentage of original material remains are seriously premature. well, yes. that's what i mean -- my original statement is, to the best of my knowledge, correct. "so soft tissue has been found."
To assert that because the specimen comes from the Late Cretaceous there is only going to be mineral material left is not really correct. Remember, "fossilization" (and here we're really talking about mineral replacement of original organic matter) is a continuum. It isn't an on/off switch that took millions of years to flip. I know that is how it is generally presented, but it really isn't accurate. How much original material remains in a "fossil" is not a constant and is related to various factors of the environment of deposition and post-deposition. Not only that, but the rates of this process taking place are also variable and poorly understood. For "Dakota" we simply don't know this answer yet. there is always the chance, since fossilization is a somewhat slow process and doesn't happen all once. i think, however, the best we can hope for would be something like the t-rex DNA extracted from a fossil (femur?). this is roughly the same time period, and there was a lot more to fossilize, so you never know. i think it would be the coolest thing ever to extract some hadrosaur DNA, even if it'll cause many more arguments with creationists about how old the earth is. actual tissue would be amazing, but let's not count our chickens. or distant chicken relatives.
We don't know this either. The geology of the locality hasn't been published in a reviewed paper. And regardless, a flash flood is NOT the necessary burial mechanism. High flow rates, yes...but it did not have to be a crazy flood event to inter the carcass quickly enough on a point bar or something to result in soft-tissue getting buried before it rotted away or was scavenged away. oh, well, i could be mistaken. i caught a program on the national geographic channel about it, and they suggested that the mineral the "mummy" is composed of was likely produced by bacteria that live in oxygen-starved environments, ie: underwater. but they could be wrong, of course. on their night of dinosaurs programming, i spent the two hours prior to it screaming at the television regarding how idiotic they were.
I have seen pictures of the locality and the rocks to me do not suggest a flood event...so I'm skeptical that a flood interpretation is the correct one anyway. This is speculative without having been ON the quarry (and I have not been), but the rocks sure don't look like flood deposits to me. fair enough. Edited by arachnophilia, : typo
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1375 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
It's actually exactly the same time period and the same suite of rocks. T. rex and this hadrosaur were contemporaries. i wasn't sure, so i tried not to make a bold statement. i'm aware they're both late cretaceous dinosaurs, and both lived in the hell creek area, but i forgot offhand which particular specimen the DNA came from. and so i didn't want to make a claim that regarding the specifics. but hey, if they came from exactly the same exact time and place, that's great.
There is a paper coming...I think soon. Stay tuned. edge of my seat.
Geographic got this one wrong. The program totally missed how meandering rivers work and the entire premise they gave of the burial of the animal is not only not congruent with the Hell Creek in general, but isn't congruent with how meandering rivers tend to bury dead animals. The CG of the carcass being buried was simply funny. it looked like poop. literally. i'm always sort of amused by how the scientists know what they're talking about in the interviews, but the narrators always always always screw stuff up. it's like the couldn't have run the final cut by one of those scientists whos work they're presenting. ah well, at least they generally get it better than the newspapers. i was sort of puzzled about how someone said that the hadrosaur's tail was far fatter than people had ever thought (yet i'm positive i've seen many depictions that weren't nearly as gaunt as their skinny version), and how they were surprised at the spacing of the vertebrae, as if dinosaurs didn't have cartilage.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1375 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
Well, exact time and place meaning both from the Hell Creek/Lance sequences. So yeah, both "in the Hell Creek area" as you stated. I didn't mean to imply that the T. rex DNA specimen and "Dakota" both came from the same quarry. Sorry if it came across that way. oh, yeah, that was the confusion i was trying to avoid.
I have some experience with this stuff...it doesn't seem to matter if you get the final cut run by you or not...stuff still ends up getting messed by the time it airs. It's crazy. i'm sure. i really wish people who are scientists themselves would report this stuff.
The skinny version was more gaunt than it was originally supposed to be...but still much skinnier than the fat one, although I'm still skeptical of the data used to support the fat assertion... well, there's been a bit of a fad recently of depicting dinosaurs as pretty skinny animals. but if you think about, they all more or less have to balance over their hips. at least the bipedal ones. so the mass of the tail has to be roughly equal to the mass of the torso, head, and forearms. right? excessively skinny tails wouldn't work as a counter-balance.
Indeed, although I did think that was one of the cooler things they found in the entire project. It's one thing to infer that dinosaurs had cartilage between adjacent centra, it's another thing entirely to SEE the damn stuff in a CT image. agreed, and it is very very cool to have the specifics. but (probably because of editting) their reasonable amazement at the coolness of seeing everything in place came across as complete ignorance of basic biology.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1375 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
Ahh...you've noticed the anorexia trend, eh? yeah, and well enough to know it's just a trend. i think it started with dinosaurs like velociraptor, as part of their general public image overhaul to make them appear more bird-like, active, and warm-blood. and they just kind of over-compensated a bit. small, bipedal dinosaurs like that may well have been skinny (especially those with pneumatized bones, less weight on one end = less weight on the other) but the larger herbivores, i would imagine, were probably not. hadrosaurs, in my mind, are a little bit like cows. grazing herd animals -- so we should expect them to be built a bit like grazing herd animals. you could probably make a pretty damned good steak from one. and i expect tyrannosaurs thought the same thing.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1375 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
that's a possibility. the drawings i've seen over the years have gotten more and more anatomically correct as well, and the "anorexia" does kind of demonstrate bone structure, and to some degree musculature. though i'm not totally sure that musculature can be entirely accurate anyways. it always seems like they're missing some thigh muscles to me.
the most preposterously skinny dinosaur depictions i've seen are generally t. rexes. some with ridiculously fragile-looking heads.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1375 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
That is, it was dessicated and mummified. We see this happen with animals in the right climate all the time. If the climate is right I think this happens in days, weeks or months. Then the mummy was fossilzed. That is the original dry flesh was replaced with minerals. I guess we don't know yet if it is a total mineralization or not. the problem i see is that the flesh and everything seems to occupy the same volume it would have in life, unlike the earlier hadrosaur mummy. which probably means that the flesh was NOT dried out before fossilization began. at least in the section they've analyzed. "mummy" is just the term they use for dinosaurs fossilized with skin intact. this one, to my knowledge, does not seem to have been actually mummified. at least as i understand the process of mummification.
The fact that it was mummified first makes nonsense out of the "it had to happen fast" claim. well, the relative completion indicates a fast burial. had it sat around exposed for a long time, things like t. rex would have wandered into a free meal. it also indicates very little chance to decompose. once buried, the fossilization can take as long as it needs to. frankly, i'm rooting for slow fossilization -- that they'll find some actual tissue. normally, we just get bones and desicated mummies. this thing seems to be a full-on cast of the entire dinosaur. and if they can pull DNA out of t. rex femur bones, what might be contained in the middle of this? it's very unlikely, but it would be pretty damned cool to pull out actual tissue.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1375 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
Maybe this is a stupid question, but how would this particular fossil have become desiccated? You think it was probably buried quickly. It was buried in sediment. To my knowledge, desiccation happens in a very dry environment. What am I missing here? the coastal plains around the hell creek formation were actually pretty wet. as JB had indicated above, there were lots of rapidly changing rivers, and there is a crocidile buried along with it. it's likely it was buried by water -- which would be the opposite of dessication. JB would probably be able to provide more info. i don't exactly know enough about this. just an arm-chair paleo-hobbyist.
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