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Author | Topic: The moral implications of evolution, and their discontents. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Chiroptera Inactive Member |
Living in SA, I'm sure that attempts to describe black people as "un-evolved" are nothing new to you. Actually, the apartheid regime in South Africa discouraged the teaching of evolution. Their racism, like racism here in North America, was based more on religious belief. If it's truly good and powerful, it deserves to engender a thousand misunderstandings. -- Ben Ratcliffe
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
Well because people tend to use evolution as a base for their racist tendencies.... Actually, that's not true. The number of people who use evolution as a justification for their racism has been a minority of racists. Racists have tended to use religious beliefs as a justification for their racism. In North America (as well as South Africa), racism has traditionally been based on interpretations of Christianity, not on an eisegesis of evolutionary theory. If it's truly good and powerful, it deserves to engender a thousand misunderstandings. -- Ben Ratcliffe
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mark24 Member (Idle past 5216 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: |
double post
Edited by mark24, : No reason given.
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mark24 Member (Idle past 5216 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: |
Beretta,
Well because people tend to use evolution as a base for their racist tendencies - as if some people groups are not so 'evolved' Like when people used to shoot aboriginees to send their skulls to natural history museums as missing links. Oh, right, the KKK were atheists, then?
everything scientific that goes against the evolutionary conclusions are left out in the textbooks -it's called 'deception by omission'. Such as? Provide scientific evidence that "goes against" the ToE. This is a strangely persistent creationist paranoia, a paranoia that not a single creo has managed to support. Maybe you can be the first, if not, then I expect you to retract your statement. Mark There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
It is my position that there are no moral, social, or philosophical implications to the theory of evolution. The theory of evolution is simply a description of observable phenomena, and the use of those phenomena to explain other observable phenomena. Perhaps it should be, but there is no question that an entire philosophy of science spawned from it. Presumably you mean that naturalism was spawned by evolution, seeing as your subtitle was "The inescapable conclusion of strict naturalism" which is not surprising, as many creationists try to portray the science of evolution as some evil thought process. Let's see how this assertion holds up to the evidence of reality:
In other words, it was started by the pre-Socratic greeks like Thales (620 - c. 546 B.C), then it was taken up by christians in the 12th century and also saw development during the “enlightenment” before the application of it to science in general led to the development of modern sciences, like biology and geology. Nor does "methodological naturalism" by it's definition accomplish what you imply. Looks like it's a typical creationist-got-it-all-wrong myth, Nem.
Yes it is just so evil to only use natural explanations for investigating only natural phenomena. The ideas been around for a while (more than 2600 years?), and you might want to try it sometime. Now do you want to talk about evolution and what it says about racism? See Message 25 Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : added quote we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share.
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Beretta Member (Idle past 5618 days) Posts: 422 From: South Africa Joined: |
Provide scientific evidence that "goes against" the ToE. This is a strangely persistent creationist paranoia, a paranoia that not a single creo has managed to support. Well maybe not on this site though I doubt it. The evidence against evolution is being presented all over the world at universities everywhere by ID and creationist proponents -I don't think you haven't heard it -perhaps your brain switches off at the point that they begin to present their case but it is out there nonetheless. Which thread would you like me to take it to?
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JB1740 Member (Idle past 5966 days) Posts: 132 From: Washington, DC, US Joined: |
and all the classic icons of evolution are misrepresented Finally maybe something we can work with. All is a lot...let's start with one. List ONE "classic icon of evolution" that is "misrepresented." And please clarify--misrepresented by whom? The scientific community? The media?
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Beretta Member (Idle past 5618 days) Posts: 422 From: South Africa Joined: |
Racists have tended to use religious beliefs as a justification for their racism Well Chiroptera I'll have to give you some points there -a lot of racism is based on perverting scripture for justification for hatred towards other races -but it is a perversion of Christianity since the Bible specifically says to 'love your neighbour as yourself' and so many other things that point in the same direction. Some religions specifically exhort their followers to cut off the infidels heads if they refuse to convert (eg.Islam) so when they do that they are being true to their religious book -which is why it is obvious to me (and many others) that Allah and the Christian God are not one and the same. Think how much easier it is to justify genocide if you believe in survival of the fittest though. It sure gets a message across and if there is no God, then why worry.Hitler used the Roman Catholic church as a front to reassure his followers -he used to pose in front of the church but he was actually an evolutionist in thought and believed fully that some races were less evolved and on that basis he devised his hit list with the Jews at the top. They weren't people and didn't deserve to live according to him so he could use them like the less evolved animals he believed they were for experiments.I suppose since the Roman Catholic church comes up for evolution that may say something for the connection -just a thought.
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Beretta Member (Idle past 5618 days) Posts: 422 From: South Africa Joined: |
Have to find another thread or I will be banished once again.
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JB1740 Member (Idle past 5966 days) Posts: 132 From: Washington, DC, US Joined: |
Have to find another thread or I will be banished once again. Yeah, as soon as I hit send I realized just how off topic that would become.
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AdminNosy Administrator Posts: 4754 From: Vancouver, BC, Canada Joined: |
Well maybe not on this site though I doubt it. The evidence against evolution is being presented all over the world at universities everywhere by ID and creationist proponents -I don't think you haven't heard it -perhaps your brain switches off at the point that they begin to present their case but it is out there nonetheless. Which thread would you like me to take it to? I'm only making this two hours since you said you would take it to a suggested thread. Since we don't know what the evidence is we don't know what thread it should go to. This sounds like a stall. You have a 2 hour suspension to figure out where to post it or to formulate an opening post. Do not bring up "evidence" again without explicitly posting it.
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mark24 Member (Idle past 5216 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: |
Beretta,
The evidence against evolution is being presented all over the world at universities everywhere by ID and creationist proponents -I don't think you haven't heard it -perhaps your brain switches off at the point that they begin to present their case but it is out there nonetheless. Which thread would you like me to take it to? Start a thread titled "Scientific Evidence Against Evolution" Mark There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
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jar Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Remember though, evidence that disproves evolution does not add any weight to some other model. If you wish to support ID or Creationism you must present the model that supports those positions.
See How can "Creationism" be supported? for guidance. Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!
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Percy Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Hi Beretta,
You're off-topic as you already seemed to realize, but I want to comment generally in the hope of putting discussion on a more constructive footing. If you're going to debate here then it would help to confine yourself to saying things that are actually true. Creationists always claim that they are excluded by the bias of scientists from academia and from publishing their research results in mainstream journals, but here we see you claiming that "evidence against evolution is being presented all over the world at universities everywhere by ID and creationist proponents." This is contradictory and makes no sense. Are you guys excluded from research and academia, or are you part of it? Make up your minds. --Percy
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
Hi, Beretta. Sorry to see you suspended. But I'll respond to this and wait for your return.
Think how much easier it is to justify genocide if you believe in survival of the fittest though. I don't see how. Is it the phrase "survival of the fittest" that bothers you? Darwin didn't like that phrase much, and it is a bit misleading. At any rate, it's pretty much a cartoon phrase that describes evolution like "things fall down" describes the theory of gravity. Not very precise, and it can be misleading. -
[Hitler] was actually an evolutionist in thought and believed fully that some races were less evolved and on that basis he devised his hit list with the Jews at the top. I'm not sure that this was true -- my understanding is that Nazism was mostly an eisegesis of Nietzsche combined with traditional European Christian antisemitism. Could you provide some verification of his evolutionary views? Even if he was an "evolutionist", did he use the theory of evolution as understood by scientists to justify his fascism? Can you provide something that would show what he understood evolution to be? At any rate, all you are doing is repeating an earlier point. We both agreed that a racist can justify her racism with whatever explanatory framework that is available. A racist that is a fundamentalist Christian will use the Bible to justify racism; a racist that is more scientifically minded might justify it using her understanding of biology. The question is whether racism comes naturally out of the theory of evolution. So far all you have done is say it does -- you haven't explain how it does at all. -
...if there is no God, then why worry. Not the subject of this thread. The question is whether the theory of evolution promotes racism or any other moral, philosophical, or social theory. If it's truly good and powerful, it deserves to engender a thousand misunderstandings. -- Ben Ratcliffe
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