Human rights, cultural diversity, and moral relativity

Except, of course, for those who don't feel that way.Anyhow, let's stop hacking this thread to pieces with GM discussion... please?

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"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

molbiogirl responds to me:

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Body mod folks hack their tender bits to pieces regularly.

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I know.But there are limits. There comes a time when one becomes a danger to oneself.

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

I have yet to find an example of a person who's been prosecuted for splitting his penis in half (or any other extreme genital body mod).Perhaps you'd like to point me to a specific case.

molbiogirl responds to me:

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I have yet to find an example of a person who's been prosecuted for splitting his penis in half (or any other extreme genital body mod).

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And they don't really prosecute you for suicide, either, though it is technically illegal.You're asking for nonsense.Are you deliberately trying to be dense?

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

If you don't mean legal limits, what limits are you referring to?

molbiogirl responds to me:

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If you don't mean legal limits, what limits are you referring to?

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You really don't know? Why do we stop people from comitting suicide and yet not throw them in jail, even though it is illegal to commit suicide?Yes, there are legal ramifications involved. But you seem to think that those ramifications start and end with a prosecution. Might there be more to it than just the law?

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Unlike suicide, body mod has folks that can be prosecuted/regulated.It would be a very simple matter to prosecute a body mod shop owner.I did a bit of looking around and ... nothing.It would be a very simple matter to exclude body mod shops thru local zoning ordinances.Again ... nothing.In fact, although I'm certain that some are still on the books, most local ordinances that "outlaw" tattoo parlors have been rescinded.Is there some other sort of law/ordinance/statute that you think is being used to set "limits"?Edited by molbiogirl, : sp

he means that he can't imagine why anyone would think differently from him and why anyone might *want* to change the shape, structure, or appearance of their body parts and yet still be rational, sane, healthy individuals, and therefore, they all must be in need of prevention and psychological treatment. what he doesn't see is that the only reason fgm and circumcision are "wrong" is that these individuals generally are not given the chance to provide consent and they are not provided the necessary health care considerations like cleanliness and sterile instruments.

molbiogirl responds to me:

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Unlike suicide, body mod has folks that can be prosecuted/regulated.

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Huh? If you attempt suicide, that is against the law. Why don't we prosecute those who attempt suicide? No, not the ones who succeed...the ones who fail. Why do we not prosecute those who try to kill themselves but fail?

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It would be a very simple matter to prosecute a body mod shop owner.

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What does that have to do with anything? We're talking about why certain actions are considered something that society can decide to prevent...not whether or not they actually go ahead and do it.

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Is there some other sort of law/ordinance/statute that you think is being used to set "limits"?

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You mean like how tongue-splitting is illegal?You're missing the point: There is a line that is drawn. The question we are debating is where. Very simple question: Is it possible for a person to be a danger to himself? More difficult question: If so, how do we make that determination?

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

I love being psychoanalyzed over the internet. I always learn such interesting things about myself!brennakimi responds to me:

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he means that he can't imagine why anyone would think differently from him and why anyone might *want* to change the shape, structure, or appearance of their body parts and yet still be rational, sane, healthy individuals, and therefore, they all must be in need of prevention and psychological treatment.

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(*chuckle*)Question: What is my position on moral absolutes?Question: What is my attitude regarding suicide?Practical use of knowledge: Given the previous answers, how might it inform my expected attitude regarding genital mutilation?

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

clearly it doesn't matter because you have an irrational attachment to your genitalia. you can't imagine why anyone would do it. you consider it "mutilation" instead of a cosmetic choice. you equate the desire to change the form of your genitals with a mental disorder.and yet you expect me to believe this is informed by any opinion you may have on choice.i don't know what the hell you think of suicide and i don't care. suicide has nothing to do with genitals.

You really ought to do your research. Helping someone commit suicide is a crime.It is prosecuted.Therefore, if body mod were of the same caliber, helping someone "commit" body mod would be prosecuted as well. In Illinois, Michigan, and Indiana.That's hardly "against the law".And it has yet to be prosecuted.If you want to argue "it's on the books", there are any number of really stupid laws that are still on the books that are not prosecuted.Take a look at The domain name dumblaws.com is for sale. We haven't drawn that line with regard to body mod.And, in all likelihood, we won't.Personal freedom is too highly valued in this country.

brennakimi responds to me:

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clearly it doesn't matter because you have an irrational attachment to your genitalia.

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And here we go again with the psychoanalysis over the internet. No wonder Frist thought he could do it over a videotape. I mean, with videotape, you actually get to see the person engaging in behaviour.When was it established that I was cut or uncut?

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you can't imagine why anyone would do it.

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Yes, I can. I was wanting to know why you thought someone would. That's why I asked YOU. I already know what I think.

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you consider it "mutilation" instead of a cosmetic choice.

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Do I? Or perhaps I understand the difference between mutilation and cosmetology?

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u equate the desire to change the form of your genitals with a mental disorder.

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Do I?Question: Have you considered the possibility that I have changed the form of mine? Nah. Of course not. You can psychoanalyze me over the internet, so therefore you know my exact morphology, right?So spill my secrets. I give you full permission. What, if anything, have I had done to me? When was it done? Who did it? Where? How? Why?

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i don't know what the hell you think of suicide and i don't care. suicide has nothing to do with genitals.

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You truly don't get it, do you? Do you not understand that suicide is the ultimate form of "self-modification"? And might not my thoughts on that inform how I would respond to lesser methods?Here, let me help with another question: What is my attitude regarding getting your hair cut?Now, here we go with me doing your homework for you:It's a safe bet that I don't have much of a problem with hair cuts (as an actor, I am constantly having to futz with my hair.) Therefore, there is certainly a form of body modification that is of pretty much no concern.And thus, a line has been drawn: There is at least one item that falls on this side of it.Now, as we move to other forms body modification, this will mean that they fall on some side of the line...quite possibly that the line goes all the way out to suicide.Thus, might there be a methodology to consider when it falls on this side and when it falls on that?Ah, but that would require analysis and consideration...things difficult to do when you're obsessed with my penis, brennakimi.

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

molbiogirl responds to me:

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You really ought to do your research.

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And you really ought to keep thinking.Why was the law changed? Think carefully.And to help make sure you don't stop: When we find someone who has committed suicide, what do we do with them other than arrest them?

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Helping someone commit suicide is a crime.

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It is prosecuted.

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...unless you're a doctor and are careful enough to make it look like it was "easing suffering."

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That's hardly "against the law".

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I'm sorry...but you found places where it is against the law and that makes it not against the law?I'm confused. A and ~A | F

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We haven't drawn that line with regard to body mod.

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And yet, you found three states where it is illegal to split the tongue.It seems we have drawn a line.

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Personal freedom is too highly valued in this country.

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(*chuckle*)Then why are we still having huge fights over abortion? Wasn't it decided that it was a woman's personal freedom to determine when she was going to be a parent?

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Because, when someone attempted suicide, they were never prosecuted. You'll note that the dead were not "punished" either by ignominious burial. That is beside the point.The fact remains, when a doctor is thought to have assisted someone in suicide, s/he is prosecuted. Again. You missed the point.Try to take my use of the phrase "against the law" in context.Yes. In 3 states, tongue splitting is illegal.It is also illegal to promise to marry a woman and then renege in Delaware and South Carolina.That doesn't mean that it's "against the law" to ditch somebody at the alter.It means 2 states are profoundly retarded.Murder, on the other hand, is "against the law" (in the sense that I used it in my previous post). No more than we have drawn a line re: the promise of marriage. And women still have the right to an abortion.In fact, it shows just how highly we value personal freedom that Roe v. Wade is still standing, despite the "huge fights".