Evolutionists

Exactly. (And no, I haven't been posting at that site. )I try to sound only as arrogant as my opponent. If my opponent acts like a know-it-all (ala FFGFollower) I'll get pretty hot. I'll be direct. You have to in order to have a chance of getting through.If my opponent is self-effacing, polite, and well-mannered, I try to be, too. If they're all like "I don't know much, but I thought this might be a thorny problem for evolution", I try to be like "I don't know much either... here's perhaps a flaw in this argument."I'd rather argue with the latter than the former. Sadly the internet does not trend towards civil behavior - or perhaps, words just seem more terse without the tone of voice behind them.I'm no authority; I would never wittingly claim to be. But some creationist claims are so outrageous you don't have to have a degree to debunk them.Sorry if I come off as an arrogant atheist. I like to think I'm just a serious atheist - I'm unwilling to entertain the existence of god without some proof. So I'm not willing to take the existence of god in an argument for granted. If you want to argue with me, and your position requires the existence of god (or an inerrant bible), that's something we'll have to argue about.Just as you wouldn't let "Given that the sky is pink," go by without challenge, I challenge theism when it's presented before me as a given.

...Ooohhh. Now it comes into focus.I'd point out, this is why we have both the UBB quote tags and the forum guideline about citing sources. So that other people's words aren't mistaken as your own.

That, I think, is where you're wrong. Most of us atheists here come not from a tradition of atheism, but from a religious background.I did the faith thing. I had faith in god. But christian church (as you do) says that if you have faith, god will make changes in your life - that faith leads to verifiable actions.What I discovered is that my faith had nothing at all to do with what happened. Nothing I prayed for happened. God made no changes in my life. God did nothing for me.I did believe in god. I really, really did. I believed in god so much I was a creationist, like you. It didn't work for me. I believed as strongly as I knew how. How do you explain that?If faith is real, shouldn't it work for everyone?

Yeah, it turned out the answer was simple. There wasn't any god to answer the prayers. Hence, atheism. What, a purpose I simply couldn't understand? How could I know god and yet not know his purposes? And how could a purpose of good in the world result in so much suffering? Hey, I'm not stupid. I knew what prayers were selfish and what were not. I even knew what prayers were too ambitious, though no one ever called them such. I didn't pray for personal gain nor for an end to world suffering.I prayed that my friend wouldn't succumb to the evils of drugs. He did. I prayed for the strength to not fail my classes again this semester. I didn't get it.You can say I wasn't a true christian, or that I didn't know god, or whatever. But the truth was, I was as true a christian as anyone could be. As true a one as you are, I'm sure. And god never did anything to me.I know this sounds angry or harsh or something - I'm actually not angry in the least. Not at god, or at you, or at myself. I'm just trying to impress upon you that if it's your belief that faith in god has tangible results in the real world to every person of faith, it's just not true. People of faith are no more likely to have good things happen to them than anybody else.Believe in god, if you like. I personally don't see much point in belief and worship of a god that never acts in a way distinguishable from simple, random chance.[This message has been edited by crashfrog, 06-23-2003]