Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,806 Year: 3,063/9,624 Month: 908/1,588 Week: 91/223 Day: 2/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Did Jesus Lie?
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 65 (435341)
11-20-2007 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by sidelined
11-17-2007 11:32 AM


He was not saying they have magic powers, he was saying that faith in God meant that you could accomplish anything no thing would be beyond you.
I'm just calling that "magic powers".
Regardless, Jesus could have been excused as making an analogy except for the qualification made that states, "and nothing shall be impossible for you". This is a definitive statement to clarify the previous part about commanding the mountain to move. So that line of reasoning is also abundantly incorrect.
Well, with the powers of an omnipotent god on your side, nothing is impossible, right?
I believe that, with god's help, someone could move a mountain with their faith. Its just that god isn't in the buissness of mountain-moving anymore.
That you cannot have the ability to move mountains and nothing be impossible to you means that ,either the faith does not give you anything of the sort, or the teaching is a lie.
Not being able to actually move the mountain doesn't mean that it is impossible.
Again, I still don't see how Jesus has to be lying. But I don't really even care that much anymore. Its been a little while and I've lost interest in the discussion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by sidelined, posted 11-17-2007 11:32 AM sidelined has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 47 of 65 (435346)
11-20-2007 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by New Cat's Eye
11-20-2007 12:32 PM


I've never claimed as such.
I never said you claimed to be, I just said what a great example you are.
In fact, I remember admitting before that I'm not really that good of a christian.
You could try a little harder, and be quick, you know we are in the end times and judgement day is just around the corner.
So, so fucking what?
Well sweetcheeks, you are acting more like a goat than a sheep, think on.
You seem to be more interested in insulting christians than discussing anything
I don't recall insulting you. All I did was to give you some friendly advice. But it's fine, it is your myth after all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-20-2007 12:32 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 48 of 65 (435496)
11-21-2007 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by sidelined
11-14-2007 2:59 AM


This is an excellent question, and one I ask myself all the time. I struggle also to understand it. I will share with you what I have figured out so far, although it may not answer your question, or prove you wrong.
If "nothing shall be impossible" to those with even small faith,
I am not sure this is what was meant, or how faith works. Remember, you are dealing with faith here, and very broad topic in itself.
Read Hebrews 11 on the triumphs of faith.
Remember what Jesus told the woman who reached out and touched His robe and was healed? It was your faith that healed you.
You must believe by faith that the mountain will move. Not seeing the mountain move will give you faith.
The Wesley notes say this about the phrase mountain moving:
To remove mountains was a proverbial phrase among the Jews, and is still retained in their writings, to express a thing which is very difficult, and to appearance impossible.
I am not trying to cop out of the physical mountain moving thing, but I have to ask myself about it, as what I have seen in my life by faith, has been the proverbial mountain moving several times in my life.
If your faith actually is based in reality and you believe that the words of Christ are true, then why do Christians not perform impossible feats every day?
Like I said, by faith, I have moved spiritual mountains, ones that I would have never seen move without God, and faith.
But even after saying all that, I still ask myself the same question, why isn't there anyone here on earth that can move a mountain, and have that kind of faith?
BTW, I have stood at the base of the mountain, and tried to move it, I have stood by waters edge, and tried to part it. Each time I do this, my feeling from God is that it is not necessary, will prove nothing, so it won't happen at this moment.
To perform these events would change my mind in a heartbeat.
Then you wouldn't require faith.
God came to me in a most powerful way, and
I asked my wife, who has a very strong faith about moving the mountain, and her reply was, "I see no need to move the mountain. If I move the mountain for someone so that they could believe, they still wouldn't believe."
Surely a collection of the leaders of your "Christian Nation"
Leaders of a "Christian Nation" do not have anymore faith than you or I. They are only called to lead, or are born with the gift and charisma to lead.
I maintain that it is not done because it cannot be done because it is impossible. Is there no amount of Christians on Earth reading these pages that will step up to the plate and do that which the central figure that they claim to believe in emphatically states they are capable of doing?
No one on this earth will make you believe. You have to do it yourself, or God will help you along.
edit* I also think the main part of this verse is to point out their unbelief, not to point out moving the mountain.
Edited by riVeRraT, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by sidelined, posted 11-14-2007 2:59 AM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by sidelined, posted 11-21-2007 10:51 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5907 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 49 of 65 (435613)
11-21-2007 10:51 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by riVeRraT
11-21-2007 8:23 AM


riVeRrat
You must believe by faith that the mountain will move. Not seeing the mountain move will give you faith.
This is where a significant difference in understanding of the world seems to come into play with those who are raised with religion. The most probable explanation for a negative result is a negative effect, yet here you are using the negative effect to claim that the non-event somehow means that the effect is somehow greater than before which is clearly not reasonable.
These are what I mean by wiggle tactics. The event does not occur as it is claimed therefore the error is not with the claim but an error in application? How is this even remotely logical?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by riVeRraT, posted 11-21-2007 8:23 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by riVeRraT, posted 11-22-2007 8:35 PM sidelined has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 50 of 65 (435781)
11-22-2007 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by sidelined
11-21-2007 10:51 PM


Well first off, I was not raised with religion, and as a matter of fact, I am not very found of religion, but the word religion is inescapable once you believe in Jesus/God.
I am really not sure what you mean by:
"yet here you are using the negative effect to claim that the non-event somehow means that the effect is somehow greater than before which is clearly not reasonable."
I don't see how that fits what I was explaining to you. Plus I also offered up more than one explanation, since I am not totally sure myself. If I am not sure myself, then how can it be a wiggle tactic?
It just seems to me, that you are so dead set on your opinion, that you will actually have to see a mountain move to have faith. All I am saying, is that is not how faith works, and that IS logical.
Jesus was teaching His disciples that their faith was not strong enough. That verse is connected to many others explaining faith. You get faith by believing, fasting and praying. Not moving mountains.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by sidelined, posted 11-21-2007 10:51 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by sidelined, posted 11-23-2007 1:49 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5907 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 51 of 65 (435803)
11-23-2007 1:49 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by riVeRraT
11-22-2007 8:35 PM


riVeRrat
It just seems to me, that you are so dead set on your opinion, that you will actually have to see a mountain move to have faith.
No. In this particular thread I am asking whether Jesus is lying when he says that nothing shall be impossible or if ,in fact, such a thing as having enough faith to ask for the missing limbs of amputees to be replaced is to be practiced by Christians who claim they have faith.
Since the very heart and soul of the Christian faith centers around believing what Christ said then I am at a loss to explain why people who claim that such things spoken by Jesus were gospel are incapable of implementing as a moral standard the very abilities that the leader of their religion insisted they were capable of.
If Christ is not lying then I would suggest that you who claim his words to be true are ,indeed, deluding yourselves.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by riVeRraT, posted 11-22-2007 8:35 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by riVeRraT, posted 11-23-2007 5:57 PM sidelined has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 52 of 65 (435897)
11-23-2007 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by sidelined
11-23-2007 1:49 AM


That was put much better.
If Christ is not lying then I would suggest that you who claim his words to be true are ,indeed, deluding yourselves.
I do not claim his words, according to the bible to be true, that would be foolish.
What I claim is that I feel what I believe to be the Holy Spirit, and that much of what is said in the bible about it, seems to me, to be true.
This is not science you know.
The explanations I offered you, was said, because I kind of agree with you, and that verse is hard to swallow. But I do not let it get in the way of me believing in God. I keep an open mind. I know I personally do not have enough faith to move a literal mountain, but I have moved spiritual mountains, which I would not have been able to move before.
peace.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by sidelined, posted 11-23-2007 1:49 AM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by sidelined, posted 11-26-2007 3:45 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5907 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 53 of 65 (436509)
11-26-2007 3:45 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by riVeRraT
11-23-2007 5:57 PM


riVeRrat
The explanations I offered you, was said, because I kind of agree with you, and that verse is hard to swallow. But I do not let it get in the way of me believing in God. I keep an open mind. I know I personally do not have enough faith to move a literal mountain, but I have moved spiritual mountains, which I would not have been able to move before.
Then you would be agreeing that,in so far as the bible has phrased Christ's words, they are a lie, since such things are not physically possible. Thus no amount of prayer no matter how much faith you have could give an amputee back his limbs because this is not possible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by riVeRraT, posted 11-23-2007 5:57 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by riVeRraT, posted 11-26-2007 10:50 AM sidelined has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 54 of 65 (436528)
11-26-2007 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by sidelined
11-26-2007 3:45 AM


Then you would be agreeing that,in so far as the bible has phrased Christ's words, they are a lie, since such things are not physically possible.
No, that's not what I said. While it is possible that the translation of the words, or the words themselves are not understood correctly, that it would not be impossible for anything to happen if Jesus is the true Son of the creator of the universe.
As was pointed out in the wesley notes, that the term "moving a mountain" was a common term in the day, and meant to be able to do something that is extremely difficult. It's a coin phrase. It should probably not be taken literally.
To look at the phrase, or verse, and not include the preceding verse, would be to take things out of context. The disciples came to
Him, and asked Him a specific question. He was explaining to the disciples why they could not remove the demon from the boy. Not teaching them how to move mountains. Some of the things accomplished by the disciples later, can be equated with moving a mountain. We can move mountains these days (with the right equipment), we also can replace severed limbs, and a day will come where we might be able to grow new limbs for people. The term "moving a mountain" should be relative to the time you live in, if anything.
But I could also be completely wrong, and it may be possible to move a mountain with faith, by just asking ti to move, and it is possible that no one on earth has enough faith to do that.
You are not going to prove anything by discussing this verse, only pointing out our/your level of faith, which is exactly what Jesus was doing. Congrats, you are Jesus like.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by sidelined, posted 11-26-2007 3:45 AM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by sidelined, posted 11-28-2007 10:41 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5907 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 55 of 65 (436959)
11-28-2007 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by purpledawn
11-16-2007 7:23 AM


Re: Withered Fig
purpledawn
This brings up the question that if the disciples were so inept at remembering their leader's words, why believe that this author presented Jesus' words verbatim?
Ok. By those same reasons why believe in the miraculous at all within the bible or that Jesus was anything but a man?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by purpledawn, posted 11-16-2007 7:23 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by purpledawn, posted 11-28-2007 9:02 PM sidelined has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5907 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 56 of 65 (436970)
11-28-2007 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by purpledawn
11-16-2007 11:02 AM


Re: Making Your Own Rules
purpledawn
You claim to know how much faith or doubt ICANT has personally. You don't know actually know how much faith it takes to be the size of a mustard seed.
NO.I used the words that ICANT presented in another thread to show that his statement saying he DOES NOT DOUBT all those things means that he has faith.
The common meaning to the mustard seed analogy that I have heard,in my experience with christians, is that it means just a little faith. This is in keeping with the example of the disciples and the demons .
If the deed cannot be done, then the person doesn't have enough faith or has doubt that the action will happen depending on which story you read.
Per the story, if ICANT is unable to move a mountain, grow a limb, or move a tree; then he either has doubt that the action will happen as the author of Mark stated or he doesn't have faith the size of a mustard seed as the author of Matthew stated.
That is the point I was making. ICANT made the statement that he DOES NOT DOUBT. How much bloody clearer than that does it have to be? He did not fudge on his words here did he?
I don't feel that anyone has enough faith to literally move a mountain. IMO, the doubt will always be there.
And the likely scenario would be because it cannot be done. Why does that escape your notice? How can you state that you believe something within whatever denomination you are in when ,in fact, you do not?
I am sorry but if these matters convince you at all why would you doubt this?
There is no squirming. If one takes the passage literally, then the lack of accomplishment means doubt or lack of faith no matter what the individual says. If one takes the passage metaphorically, then we aren't dealing with moving trees or mountains anyway.
But what metaphor uses the phrase move mountains to actually mean " merely a very difficult task" along with the qualifying statement "nothing shall be impossible unto you" when it references the cleansing of demons from someone?
Let us get to the crux of things even deeper. Why demons as an example when ,in fact, demons do not exist? Why not a concrete example relating to the disciples actual lives?
Demanding explanations from ICANT is useless. If one takes the story literally, the disciples didn't even have enough faith and they were with Jesus. Why would you assume that Christians today would have more faith than the disciples who were with Jesus? They may not even have faith in the right thing for all you know.
And you claim not to be wiggling? It is Christians that make the claims for magic and supernatural and faith and the one true god yet when pressed on the issue that they are adamant about they crumple and claim things are actually metaphorical. When the difficulty presents itself they "wiggle" and to say otherwise is to blatantly excuse themselves of claiming miracles and such on one hand and mere philosophical pandering on the other.
If you really have no idea just what the hell things really mean within the bible then why all the effort on it behalf? Why not simply dump the ancient texts as "gospel" and simply use your modern mind to think on things?
Why would you assume that Christians today would have more faith than the disciples who were with Jesus? They may not even have faith in the right thing for all you know.
I am not the one going around making the claims my friend. It is pervasive within the culture. Appeals to the power of faith to do miracles and heal is a barrage I have been {in Canada nonetheless}
subject to for many years. Whether they have faith or not is a matter they must concern themselves with since I believe it probably pertains a great deal to the application of that one commandment concerning false witness if not actual lying.

"Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere."
Albert Einstein

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by purpledawn, posted 11-16-2007 11:02 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by purpledawn, posted 11-29-2007 7:23 AM sidelined has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5907 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 57 of 65 (436973)
11-28-2007 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by riVeRraT
11-26-2007 10:50 AM


riVeRrat
As was pointed out in the wesley notes, that the term "moving a mountain" was a common term in the day, and meant to be able to do something that is extremely difficult. It's a coin phrase. It should probably not be taken literally.
That makes no sense since the entire ambiance of the gospels pertains to the miraculous. "Nothing shall be impossible unto you" in reference to telling a mountain to move that will then move does not imply a difficult task it implies a task that cannot be done.
Prayer is a good example. Pleading a case to god to have him do something for you. Yet the man Christ{claimed to be actually God} stated in his gospels that you could do the impossible yourself. All you need to do is have faith that it can be done. Yopu have faith enough to get up in the morning to face another day of whatever trials you have should IMO add up to a mustard seed. In some cases a whole lot more than that.
To look at the phrase, or verse, and not include the preceding verse, would be to take things out of context. The disciples came to
Him, and asked Him a specific question. He was explaining to the disciples why they could not remove the demon from the boy
The point he was making is that with just a little faith in God that nothing shall be impossible. Yet, when pressed on the issue, the Christian "faith" that people claim to belong falls apart.Perhaps it is time to quit playing that card Christians themselves do not believe in.
We can move mountains these days (with the right equipment), we also can replace severed limbs, and a day will come where we might be able to grow new limbs for people. The term "moving a mountain" should be relative to the time you live in, if anything.
I have one word for that statement. "wiggle"
But I could also be completely wrong, and it may be possible to move a mountain with faith, by just asking ti to move, and it is possible that no one on earth has enough faith to do that.
"wiggle"
You are not going to prove anything by discussing this verse, only pointing out our/your level of faith, which is exactly what Jesus was doing. Congrats, you are Jesus like.
Deflect the issue then "wiggle".

"Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere."
Albert Einstein

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by riVeRraT, posted 11-26-2007 10:50 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by riVeRraT, posted 11-28-2007 7:18 PM sidelined has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 58 of 65 (437078)
11-28-2007 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by sidelined
11-28-2007 10:41 AM


Yet the man Christ{claimed to be actually God} stated in his gospels that you could do the impossible yourself. All you need to do is have faith that it can be done.
This seems like a contradictory statement to me. "faith that it can be done" and "do the impossible yourself" seem as two different things.
First off, I want to say, I do not believe anything is done "by yourself" when it comes to the miraculous.
The " faith that it can be done" " bu God" seems more plausible to me, and more in tune to what I have experienced. The only thing I could ever do is be an obedient servant, and listen for the Lord's voice on things (which I don't always do).
Yopu have faith enough to get up in the morning to face another day of whatever trials you have should IMO add up to a mustard seed. In some cases a whole lot more than that.
That statement to me, proves why faith is always relative, and why the bible is best left subjective. One man's mustard seed, is another man's tree.
The point he was making is that with just a little faith in God that nothing shall be impossible.
This is the point of the OP, and what Jesus said. I agree with that.
Yet, when pressed on the issue, the Christian "faith" that people claim to belong falls apart.
That depends entirely on who you talk too, and if you are listening to the televangelists or not.
Christian faith, is not much more different than everyday life. That's my belief. IMO we are all always talking to God in one way or another. atheists will claim that you are talking to yourself. But why bother?
Perhaps it is time to quit playing that card Christians themselves do not believe in.
I do not know what a Christian card is, nor do I want to know. I want to be normal, like you. Anyone who claims something, that they do not believe in themselves, will be falsified. Hence the Spirit of truth, and the Holy Spirit that Jesus promised as a guide in our lives. You seem gifted in that regard.
I have one word for that statement. "wiggle"
That really doesn't explain much to me. You say wiggle, I say relative. If we are not going to be honest with each other, especially me, then it's a waste of time.
Then you claim wiggle on two other statements. I guess it means something to you then.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by sidelined, posted 11-28-2007 10:41 AM sidelined has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 59 of 65 (437102)
11-28-2007 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by sidelined
11-28-2007 9:51 AM


Re: Withered Fig
I think this has been mentioned before in other threads, but I think the idea of Jesus as more than just a man was a later development.
Not sure if we'll truly know why. It was a very different time. Why it continues depends on the needs of the person, IMO.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by sidelined, posted 11-28-2007 9:51 AM sidelined has not replied

  
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5914 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 60 of 65 (437104)
11-28-2007 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by ICANT
11-17-2007 11:48 PM


Re: Re-MUSTARD SEED
phat writes:
Since the mustard seed has never deviated from the job assigned to it, the mustard seed has perfect faith. In that it does everything in just the way God planned for it too. It has never disobeyed God.
It has always been perfect every since God created it.
I always appreciate a fresh and out-of-box look at things. And I hate to criticize as not to discourage such thinking. However.... This is I believe a corruption of the intent of the passage. Mustard seeds don't have faith they are programmed to do what they do. If this is your view then water molecules also have "perfect faith" as does a rock. You pick up a rock and let go and it obeys the law of gravity just like the creator "planned for it to" it never disobeys.
Don't you think a mustard seed was selected for this parable due to its very small size?
Further as sidelined commented please explain how one can have "No Doubt what so ever yet still not have any faith. Creative and non-standard use of definitions?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by ICANT, posted 11-17-2007 11:48 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024