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Author Topic:   A review of "There is a God" by Antony Flew
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1 of 50 (435518)
11-21-2007 1:50 PM


A review of There Is a God. By Antony Flew.
HarperOne, 2007.
In 2004 the atheist world was rocked by the news of one of the most important defections from its ranks in recent times. The world’s leading atheist, Antony Flew, announced that he was no longer an atheist, but a theist. This of course sent shock waves through the anti-theist camp, since they had long been claiming that rational and reasonable people only choose unbelief, whereas believers can only be regarded as stupid, gullible and deluded. It is pretty hard to describe Antony Flew in those terms.
Indeed, given his credentials, this is an amazing book about an amazing intellectual about-face. For over 50 years Flew was the number one proponent of atheism. And as a world class scholar with over 30 books on philosophy in print, he was one of the twentieth century’s most imposing intellectual figures.
In this book we hear about the reasons why he has abandoned atheism and embraced its counterpart. The significance of this turnaround can be seen in part by the ugly attacks and bitter responses by fellow atheists. They have made it perfectly clear that Flew has committed the unpardonable sin here. Their crude and ugly attacks on him and his decision is a telling commentary on the intellectual shallowness, bigoted fundamentalism, and narrow-minded intolerance that characterises so much of the new atheism.
The first half of this book is a brief intellectual biography of Flew. Here we learn about how he was raised in a Christian home; his decision to embrace atheism at age 15; his career as a professional philosopher; his numerous important works on philosophy; his time as a Marxist; his encounters with such intellectual heavyweights as C.S. Lewis, A.J. Ayer, Gilbert Ryle, Wittgenstein, and others; his debates with Christian theists such as Lewis, Alvin Plantinga, Richard Swinburne, William Lane Craig; his debates with fellow atheists such as Richard Dawkins; and his six decades as a dogmatic atheist.
The second half of the book deals with why he finally felt compelled to abandon his atheism and embrace theism. He offers three main reasons for his defection, (or apostasy, as many fellow atheists regard his move). The first bit of evidence he cites is the fact that nature obeys rational and ordered laws. The second is the fact that we are intelligently organised and purpose-driven beings. The third is the very existence of nature itself. The brute evidence of nature, in others words, has led Flew to recognise that “the universe was brought into existence by an infinite Intelligence”.
He expands these three points in some detail, and demonstrates how any open-minded examination of recent scientific discoveries can only point in one direction: that matter alone is not all there is, and a supreme intelligence must be directing what we observe in nature.
All the reasons offered in this book are based on an honest assessment of the evidence. Flew had made it a life habit to follow the command of Plato attributed to Socrates, “We must follow the argument wherever it leads”.
Flew rightly complains that so many atheists are simply stuck in a narrow box, where prior faith commitments to naturalism preclude an honest evaluation of the evidence. It is so easy “to let preconceived theories shape the way we view evidence,” he says, “instead of letting the evidence shape out theories”. Flew’s willingness as an honest atheist to follow the evidence where it leads finally led him out of the barren sands of atheism into the refreshing oasis of theism.
He notes that many leading scientists today “have built a philosophically compelling vision of a rational universe that sprang from a divine mind”. Eminent scientists and scientific thinkers such as Max Planck, Erwin Schrodinger, Werner Heisenberg, Paul Davies, Francis Collins, John Polkinghorne, Roger Penrose and Stephen Hawking all acknowledge that there must be more to reality than what is offered in the materialist worldview.
The various new discoveries - be they in astronomy, physics, cosmology, genetics or molecular biology - all demonstrate intelligence, purpose, order, design and complexity, the most obvious explanation of which is an intelligent designer.
Flew of course takes on all the various challenges to such thinking, be it the multiverse scenarios, the functionalism of Dennett, Stenger’s notion of symmetry, or Dawkins’ idea of selfish genes. Concerning the last of these, Flew had long been a critique of this idea. “Genes, of course, can be neither selfish nor unselfish,” he says, “any more than they or any other nonconscious entities can engage in competition or make selections”. Indeed, natural selection “does not positively produce anything. It only eliminates, or tends to eliminate, whatever is not competitive”.
Even though this is a brief book of just 200 pages, the cumulative case for the inadequacies of atheism and the necessity of theism is here very nicely and compellingly made. And given the one making the case - the world’s leading atheist for six decades - this book needs to be seriously read by everyone.
Flew makes it clear that he is not a Christian - at least as yet - but is basically a deist. Deism says that there is a creator God, but such a God has no ongoing relationship with the created order - a bit like an absentee landlord. He says his journey to theism was based on reason alone, not faith, and he has yet to decide about revealed religion.
He does inform us however that if he were to embrace a revelational religion, Christianity would be the best choice. Indeed, he finds the arguments for Christianity persuasive, and is now exploring the evidence for this as well. He is even impressed with the central truth claim of Christianity, the resurrection of Jesus. In fact, he allows New Testament scholar N.T. Wright to have a concluding chapter in this book, making the case for the resurrection.
So as an honest seeker, he is more than willing to consider the claims of Christ. But for the honest atheist, this book offers a persuasive case for the claims of theism. As Roy Abraham Varghese argues in another appendix to this book, “we have all the evidence we need in our immediate experience” for theism, and the only reason why people remain in atheism is a refusal to look at this evidence.
In this hugely important book Antony Flew challenges all of us - atheists especially - to honestly and sincerely examine the evidence, without preconceived biases and agendas. Genuine intellectual honesty demands that we indeed follow the evidence wherever it may lead.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by crashfrog, posted 11-21-2007 2:43 PM GDR has replied
 Message 6 by Chiroptera, posted 11-21-2007 3:15 PM GDR has replied
 Message 11 by bluegenes, posted 11-21-2007 3:53 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 24 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-21-2007 6:53 PM GDR has replied
 Message 44 by subbie, posted 11-24-2007 3:42 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 3 of 50 (435527)
11-21-2007 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by crashfrog
11-21-2007 2:43 PM


Here is a recent interview. This does not sound like a man with dementia.
http://www.tothesource.org/10_30_2007/10_30_2007.htm
And another one from the BBC
BBC - 404: Not Found
Edited by GDR, : No reason given.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by crashfrog, posted 11-21-2007 2:43 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Chiroptera, posted 11-21-2007 3:03 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 5 by crashfrog, posted 11-21-2007 3:10 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 8 of 50 (435545)
11-21-2007 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Chiroptera
11-21-2007 3:15 PM


Re: Oh, and by the way...
One of the interviews I posted was with the BBC.
The conclusions that he came to regarding theism happened a few years back prior to any age related difficulties he may or may not be having.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Chiroptera, posted 11-21-2007 3:15 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by crashfrog, posted 11-21-2007 3:35 PM GDR has replied
 Message 10 by Chiroptera, posted 11-21-2007 3:39 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 12 of 50 (435563)
11-21-2007 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by crashfrog
11-21-2007 3:35 PM


Re: Oh, and by the way...
crashfrog writes:
So why his denial, last year, that he was anything but an atheist, and that his supposed "conversion" had simply been at the hands of the believers who had manipulated him?
Where is the link to that?
As often happens on this forum the way to refute an argument is to attack the individual. He's senile - He's maniupulted - etc.
You vcan and will disagree with these points but they certainly sound like the views of a rational man to me.
From the OP writes:
The second half of the book deals with why he finally felt compelled to abandon his atheism and embrace theism. He offers three main reasons for his defection, (or apostasy, as many fellow atheists regard his move). The first bit of evidence he cites is the fact that nature obeys rational and ordered laws. The second is the fact that we are intelligently organised and purpose-driven beings. The third is the very existence of nature itself. The brute evidence of nature, in others words, has led Flew to recognise that “the universe was brought into existence by an infinite Intelligence”.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by crashfrog, posted 11-21-2007 3:35 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by bluegenes, posted 11-21-2007 4:08 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 16 by Chiroptera, posted 11-21-2007 4:29 PM GDR has replied
 Message 28 by crashfrog, posted 11-21-2007 8:48 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 17 of 50 (435574)
11-21-2007 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Chiroptera
11-21-2007 4:29 PM


Re: To repeat an earlier point....
quote writes:
The first bit of evidence he cites is the fact that nature obeys rational and ordered laws. The second is the fact that we are intelligently organised and purpose-driven beings. The third is the very existence of nature itself. The brute evidence of nature, in others words, has led Flew to recognise that “the universe was brought into existence by an infinite Intelligence”.
I can't see how you can consider this line of thought irrational. These observations certainly lead to questions about the basis of our existance, which may or may not lead peole to believe in a creative intelligence, but the conclusion that Flew comes to certainly appears rational.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Chiroptera, posted 11-21-2007 4:29 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Chiroptera, posted 11-21-2007 5:14 PM GDR has replied
 Message 21 by bluegenes, posted 11-21-2007 5:54 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 19 of 50 (435576)
11-21-2007 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Chiroptera
11-21-2007 5:14 PM


Re: To repeat an earlier point....
He makes three observations about our existance. I agree that they can just stand on their own without any response, on the other hand we do have enquiring minds which leads us to ask - I wonder why. One of the possibilities that this question raises is that things were intelligently designed, (which is naot a scientific statement), to be that way.
Flew isn't saying that the three things imply a Theistic conclusion. Flew is just saying that on balance when he considered these things it caused HIM to come to a Theistic conclusion. He isn't saying that because of any impication made by these three statements that you or anyone else should come to that conclusion. The statement sounds totally rational to me.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Chiroptera, posted 11-21-2007 5:14 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Chiroptera, posted 11-21-2007 5:42 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 23 of 50 (435583)
11-21-2007 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Chiroptera
11-21-2007 5:42 PM


Re: To repeat an earlier point....
Chiroptera writes:
These statements make no sense if there is no reason why any of us should come to the same conclusions that Flew did.
It is a review of the book. I would imagine that you have to read the book to gain the reasons.
Chiroptera writes:
you are saying that Flew came to an idiosyncratic position that has little to do with reason. You are also undercutting the importance of the book by admitting that it is about the idiosyncratic arational musings of one particular person.
I know that this just leads into amother argument about reason but it is your opinion that his so called musings are idiosyncratic. In my view the notion that the universe exists without a prime mover is irrational. Can I prove that? No. Is it idiosyncratic? Maybe, but no more so than asserting that there is no prime mover.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Chiroptera, posted 11-21-2007 5:42 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Chiroptera, posted 11-21-2007 6:58 PM GDR has replied
 Message 30 by Omnivorous, posted 11-21-2007 10:29 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 26 of 50 (435590)
11-21-2007 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Dr Adequate
11-21-2007 6:53 PM


Dr Adequate writes:
... who none of us had ever heard of ...
The following is from a secular humanist web site followed by the link
Quote writes:
Professor Flew is the author of “Theology and Falsification,” one of the most famous essays of the twentieth century (Pojman 1987). In that essay, which has been reprinted over 40 times and translated into several languages (Flew 2000), he shows that religious belief is not falsifiable and is based on an argument from incredulity.
http://www.secularhumanism.org/.../exclusive/young_01-05.htm

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-21-2007 6:53 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-21-2007 10:11 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 27 of 50 (435591)
11-21-2007 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Chiroptera
11-21-2007 6:58 PM


Re: To repeat an earlier point....
Chiroptera writes:
If you're trying to say that the existence of a deity makes sense to Flew, just say so -- don't use the word rational since it isn't appropriate in the context in which you are using it. If you are saying that the existence of the universe without a creator doesn't make sense to you, just say that; the use of irrational in the way you are using it is inappropriate.
OK. I'll go along with this.
Chiroptera writes:
Rational and irrational refer to whether a conclusion follows necessarily from the premises of the argument or can be logically inferred from the evidence available. Creating non-sequiturs, like this alleged argument from Flew, are not rational in the usual meaning of the word.
It is just possible that you understand the use of the word better than I do. I was using the term pretty much interchangably with sensible. Thanks

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Chiroptera, posted 11-21-2007 6:58 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 34 of 50 (435707)
11-22-2007 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by crashfrog
11-22-2007 12:12 AM


Re: To repeat an earlier point....
crashfrog writes:
No, I actually think the fact that theism can only be defended by behaving in the most dishonest possible manner - or by refusing to defend it at all - is quite germane. GDR seems to think that this book is a blow against atheism, but it simply highlights the well-funded, well-coordinated attack machine that considers no tactic too underhanded in the fight against free thought.
I do not think that this book is a blow against Atheism, any more than it is a blow to Christianity when a Christian converts to Atheism. The truth is still the truth no matter what either of us belive. I posted it without comment for the purpose of discussion. I do happen to think that the arguments raised in the OP make sense.(Not rational as it turns out. ) You don't. As often seems to be your approach you resort to insult, ridicule and name calling. I am all for free thought and have freely come to the opposite conclusion that you have.
By the way, I don't feel threatened by Atheists in the least and as a matter of fact I contend that the strident Atheism that we see in people like Dawkins and yourself actually is helpful. It causes people to think, and in my view the more people think on these things the better. It is my intention to purchase a copy of the debate between Dawkins and Lennox and show it in our church so that people do have the opportunity to come to their own conclusions.
Other readers can read through your posts and come to their own conclusions about who is feeling threatened.
In love
GDR

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by crashfrog, posted 11-22-2007 12:12 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by crashfrog, posted 11-22-2007 2:44 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 36 of 50 (435775)
11-22-2007 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by crashfrog
11-22-2007 2:44 PM


Re: To repeat an earlier point....
crashfrog writes:
I don't know what you think you're talking about.
Is any disagreement an insult to a believer like you? It must be.
Right. I guess I just don't understand friendly contsructive discourse.
crashfrog writes:
Or, you know, something like that. Believers acting like assholes because the mere existence of atheists threatens them. What the hell else is new?

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by crashfrog, posted 11-22-2007 2:44 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by crashfrog, posted 11-22-2007 7:52 PM GDR has not replied

  
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