EvC Forum: Human rights, cultural diversity, and moral relativity

Well, I guess I'm gonna jump in on this one a bit early...cuz I have a feeling that eventually this is going to turn in primarily a discussion between you on one side, and Crashfrog on the other (with nator joining in as well). And to be honest, I'm looking forward to that debate.

Silent H writes:

It is my belief the concept of human rights is currently being used as a pretext to destroy cultural diversity.

I will start of by saying that I am in agreement with Crash on this one. Not that I'm against cultural diversity (nor, do I believe, is he), but rather because I think that in that day and age, change in inevitable. I seems to me that (at least as it pertains the diversity), you want to keep things static. You have some sort of noble cause to save the World from cultural stagnation. However, I honestly believe that cultures will, for lack of a better decription, somewhat blend. That is, as the World grows smaller, huge differences between cultures will lessen. To think otherwise is a bit unrealistic.

I don't think that Crash is advocating one culture for the entire World (but hey, maybe he his... I'll let him speak for himself). Instead I think he is taking a realistic approach in dealing with an ever shrinking World. He, and the rest of us, are now aware of FGM...on this I think we all agree (well except for maybe RiVerRaT. It's possible that he has never heard of FGM

...sorry RR, I couldn't resist...and honestly, it's only a joke). Forcing the men of this culture to stop this practice will not destroy their culture. It may change it, but it will not destroy it. Societies and culture evolve over time, Holmes. It's one the the results of globalization. It's inevitable.

But yet you seem to be of the adage that it's OK, for the sake of diversity, to ignore this practice. Personally, I think you're being a bit naive by simply stating that we, with our own biased views or morality, should accept the status quo. Taking a hand-off approach troubles me. While it may seem "noble", it's actually quite scary. When do we, as a "society" step in and stop an injustice? And I know that you're going to respond with: "define injustice". But again, you're ignoring the question. It (FGM) is oppression in the worst sort of way. You want to ignore the practice on the grounds that "hey, it's their culture, who are we to judge". But what sort of response is that? Again I ask, "when should we step in?" How long do we ignore something like this? Where do we draw the line". It's cowardly to play the diversity card. It's too easy and does nothing.

Silent H writes:

...If they invented their own concept and called it "human rights" derived naturally from one's just being human, do they have an actual obligation to apply it to every other culture, or you to accept it as real? Why or why not?

You seem to enjoy taking things to the hypothetical extreme, so let me present this "cultural practice" to you and then pose a question. But first, let's set up the scenario as we currently see it. The practice of FGM is a cultural tool used by men of the society to oppress women. Globally, it seems to be a rather small issue, in that it certainly is not widely discussed or shown on the nightly news. Some people compare this sort of genital mutilation to male circumcision. It would be a more fair comparison if we (males) had our glans penis removed during "circumcision", rather than just our prepuce, don't you agree. So for the sake of argument, lets assume that there exists a female dominated society that forcibly removes the male glans penis at puberty.

And now here, finally, is my question. Do you, Holmes, believe that once this practice was brought forth to the World, that it would be ignored to the degree that FGM is being ignored? Not by you personally, but as a society? Your view (I assume) would be that it's no big deal and should be basically ignored. I'm not taking issue with you on that..I think it's at least commendable that you would view it the same as female genital mutilation.

My question wants to look at current society. Female genital mutilation, I contend, is basically ignored because it is happening to females. If males were having the heads of their dicks chopped off, the christian community, conservative, and most other groups that are currently ignoring (by and large) FGM, would be screaming bloody murder.

So I guess the answer to your question, would be "yes", if the a fore mentioned practice was being preformed on me. Hell, I'd damned well fully expect other cultures and societies to step in and help.

Silent H writes:

Crashfrog argued that human rights are objective and belong to the entire "human community". As such he has a right, and obligation to fight injustices he sees according to that framework of rights, regardless of borders and any impact on other cultures.

What I (and Crash and Nator) are advocating is change where there is outright oppression. I fail to see how you can view FGM as anything other than female oppression. Do females look forward to this day? Are they eagerly anticipating the idea of having their clitoris cut off? I doubt it. But hey, even if they are indeed happy to undergo this practice, I think one has to ask "Why?" Why would a female willing subject herself to something so awful? Does she not know the joys a clitoral stimulation? Does she not care? Or could it be that she has be indoctrinated with the concept for most of her life? If you keep telling someone (especially a small child) that something is for their own good, does that indeed make it right?

By your logic, it is then acceptable to indoctrinate kids to become suicide bombers...right? After all, it's simply their culture to hate non-Muslims, so blowing them up is not only acceptable...it's a culture right!

I guess my point is that it's a mistake to somehow assume the stopping FGM will in some way have a detrimental affect of Global cultural diversity. Their culture will still be different from ours. That's diversity, is it not? Their culture may change as a result of stopping the practice, but that certainly doesn't mean that they now share all of our cultural values. We may all now share a view more values...but we'd still be quite diverse. Basically, I think your fears are unfounded because you are taking them to the extreme.

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