Pascal's Wager - Any Way to Live a Life

I can imagine Our Lord at a cocktail party of deities were he is something of a celebrity. Billions of deities want to get invited to the eternal celebrity party."You are not being rational", says God, and goes onto explain that being rational is the only way to get into "heaven", the name of said party. The deities plead and cajole saying that they are rational, but they've never been given a chance to prove it.So God says "I'll make a bet: I will create a universe which contains no evidence that would confirm my existence. I will provide no rational way to determine anything about its creator. I will then send your souls into this universe, and I will integrate them into the universe so perfectly that you there will be no reason for you to suspect I had done it. You will have no memories of me, just your innate reasoning skills which I will preserve in the guise of a thing called a 'brain'.I bet you will still come to believe that you are able to determine my properties, my character or my intentions - against all reason to the contrary.If you take my bet and you do not accept my existence by the end of your time in this universe you will get tickets into the celebrity deity cocktail party of eternity. If you take my bet, and by the end of your time in this universe you do have irrational beliefs about my character...then you will be sentenced to spend all of eternity in my universe which I will ensure is a terrible suffering place. I'll create some really nasty places where your soul will dwell for eternity. Pain and horror will be your only friends.Any takers?"

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I know the difference between a monologue and a dialogue.

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How do you know?

Where has that gotten you?

Nothing that is truly God shares its powers nor is subordinate to another entity. Logical thinking says as much. Rationality, sanity, and logic are all that we have for understanding anything, including God. Any other method for understanding anything in the Universe is utterly foolish. There is no reason to let people think the Sun goes around the Earth when all logic says elsewise, and there is no reason to let people think certain things about God when all logic says elsewise. Logic is all we have for understanding anything; blind faith does not equate to understanding.When in your life have you ever accepted major principles as truth if there was no logic to back them? Why is God any different?JonEdited by Jon, : verb agreement

Fixed that for you.

How does that manifest exactly? How does the almighty reply?

Right on.For those of us who do not believe, I think it is honest (could be intellectually, could be emotionally) to choose to believe. It's simply a personal choice.

I agree. But you can believe in Christ and observe them. Sorry to take the wind out of your sales. Be careful what you sell, a few cleverer theists won't automatically buy.A lot of faith is decision and I know from experience that when I became atheist, it was because of doubt and a defeatest attitude. I then chose to believe again - I even remember the moment.Believers are tough. To doubt and disbelieve is to climb off the saddle when the mountain pass gets steep. To incorporate the positive requires positive action. Examples;(I want to be a vet. I need to qualify, work hard. As opposed to the contrary, to not be a vet, well - that equals a lack of positive effort as all you do is quit.)(Be a cook/knitter. I'll let you fill in the rest..............................................)But the knife in the guts was when I decided to not give up and to be, as the bible states, an overcomer.I was also born into the position of secular indifference as regards religion.Science and logic don't support, "Not God" and "leave intelligence at the door". INFACT, you are saying that it is your opinion that this is the case.But alas, it is clearly false. Perhaps now a new pair of reading glasses are in order Shraff. You show signs of not understanding Phat's pragmatics. Allow me to expound for you; We presuppose that God exists and under that premise, he knows better, as we believe he is omniscient. That means that we don't think YOU can out-think the creator.That's what it means.You are defining anyone who disagrees with your opinions and believes in God as unintelligent. That is arrogant and transparent and illogical.But know this; you have nothing but opinion that favours your own freethinking ideology of disbelief, as science and logic don't claim to support your position in the least.You are conflating logic and science with your ideology like your particular ideology owns science and logic.Completely false I am afraid. it is infacy that generally freethinking educated atheists observe logic and science.(Ben or Modulous for example, rational logical folk).Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.

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I engaged in reductio ad absurdum at the request of my disfunctional compulsive contaminatrix that regurgitates anomolous fallacious recognition processes in random bouts of severe over-thought, thereby contained via the irrefutability cells in my left hemisphere. ~ mike the wiz

Maybe, but committing a terrible act like injuring a child would require positive action. Merely doing nothing would be morally preferable. Just because something requires great effort and determination, does not make it morally superior or guarantee accuracy in any associated objective claims. Indeed, if something requires extreme effort to believe, might that not be because it is untrue? OK, but that only really works if god exists. If religion was a wholly artificial creation, then I might reasonably suggest that I could out-think its human authors (or not). This I totally agree with. I am an outspoken atheist, but I do not believe that religious believers are stupid. That is insulting and easily disproved in any case. I think that belief in god (or other unprovable dogmas, such as an afterlife) is a little bit dumb, given the lack of evidence, but it is always the case that intelligent people can hold beliefs that others hold to be ridiculous. Reasonable people can disagree about such matters without undue rancour, or childish name calling. I often do stupid things or hold opinions which turn out to be hogwash, but I hope that I am not a stupid person.
Getting back to Pascal's Wager, I don't think that people can consciously decide to embrace a given belief, to order, so to speak. You could start to rationalise it to yourself, but opinions come from within, unbidden and often unwelcome, and I could never impose them upon myself in this way.This leaves the wager looking tawdry. Surely any god worth the name would see through such cheap chicanery.
I am reminded of the philosopher from one of Terry Pratchett's Discworld novels, who espouses opinions identical to the wager. Upon his death, he enters the afterlife, only to meet a group of angry, club wielding deities, who tell him "We're going to show you what we think of Mr. Clever Dick in these parts." Quite.

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To doubt and disbelieve is to climb off the saddle when the mountain pass gets steep.

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Not really.Doubt is the only thing that allows us to change and take in new information.Without doubt, we stagnate.Doubt is one of the greatest gifts we have as thinking creatures.

Or, you could look at it as "climbing out of the barrel before it goes over the falls."

Doubt is our greatest blessing and greatest curse.Because of it, we never are able to trust God. With it, we continually attempt to grow up.

You must be kidding!

Nemesis Juggernaut responds to me:

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Since when did you become the chosen one who knows the mind of the god that truly exists?

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The day we met.

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I don't recall you being there.

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You didn't really think it was the Christian one, did you?

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YHWH, HaShem, Adonai, El Shaddai, Yeshua... If that's the Christian God, then yes.

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But who said that was the god that really existed? You? Why should we believe you?

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But if it is a wager, I'll take that bet and raise you your soul.

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BZZZZT!I'm so sorry, Nemesis Juggernaut. Johnny, tell him what parting gifts he has!Well, Bob, Nemesis Juggernaut has won himself a lifetime of anguish in someone else's hell! Yes, that's right. After spending all of his life fighting against Satan and worshipping the Christian god, Nemesis Juggernaut gets a reward of going straight to Hades for his hubris. He'll be sentenced to solve a series of puzzles for which the instructions can be read in many ways. Every attempt to glean more information will be met with "Since it would just be a waste of my time to tell you, I won't." Of course, every proposed solution will conflict with something in the contradictory instructions. This being for his continued insistence that those around him are unworthy of explanations.But, he won't get hungry because he'll have an afterlife-time supply of Rice-a-Roni®, the San Francisco Treat.You didn't really think that the god that truly exists is the Christian one, did you?

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Everyone that believes something should have some kind of reason for believing.

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Indeed. "Trying to win a bet" is a reason.Why do you think you understand god's intentions such that that reason isn't good enough?

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Obviously, that is not how salvation works

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Who says? You? Why should we believe you? We're talking about the god that truly exists, not your fantasy one.

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Its not something you could know empirically 100%.

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Very good, NJ. You're getting close.So since at least two-thirds of the planet feel that you're barking up the wrong tree and have just as much evidence to support their claim as yours, why should you think that you're anywhere close to being right?

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The whole point of Christendom is that you can't be a good boy on your own without coming to the realization that you require mercy.

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But the whole point of the fallacy of the wager is that the above is irrelevant: What made you think Christianity was the way to go? We're talking about the god that truly exists, not this fantasy you've created.

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God... I've got Him on the line...

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I'm sorry...but your call cannot be connected.We're talking about the god that truly exists, not your fantasy one.

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He says He wants you to stop being an angry, antagonsitic atheist

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(*chuckle*)I love being psychoanalyzed over the internet. I always learn such fascinating things?When was it determined that I was an atheist? I know I haven't said anything on the subject and I should think that I would be the final authority on what I do or do not believe with regard to god.Do not confuse my lack of belief in your god with a lack of belief in any god. This is exactly the same fallacy as the wager: Confusing your god with the real god.

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Since He bestowed on you a freewill, you have to ask for Him.

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You mean god doesn't have free will? God can't bestow grace on someone just because he likes him, even though it was never asked for? Simply because he thought it would be a nice thing to do?I thought we were talking about the god that truly exists and not your fantasy one.

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

mike the wiz writes:

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That means that we don't think YOU can out-think the creator.

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And once again, you fall for the fallacy of the wager: Thinking you understand god's motivations, intentions, and characteristics.Besides, your own book contradicts you: God gets out-thought all the time. How do you think Lot managed to survive the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah? Because Abraham out-thought him. How do you think the Hebrews managed to survive the 40 years in the desert? Because Moses out-thought god and continually calmed him down from his temper tantrums.Jacob out-thinks god all the time. He steals Esau's birthright and god can do nothing to restore it.So since there is no reason to think you've managed to get god's intentions right and your own holy book contradicts you regarding god's characteristics, what makes you think you really understand god's motivations?

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.