Rapture (pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib) ?

Reverse,If you believe in the Triune God there is no problem with the "Angel" Christ lifting His hand to the Him who created heaven and earth etc.If you believe in the Trinity there should be no objection for the One through whom all things were made is the Word Who was with God and was God (John 1:1-3).

Immediatley after the manchild is raptured there is war in heaven in Revelation 12. Too many readers did not see the connection between the rapture of the manchild and the driving down of Satan by Michael and his angels right after.The rapture of the manchild is not just a matter of some individuals being caught up. It is a strategic strike to bring the age to an end the age old warfare between God and His enemy to a divine victory for God's kingdom.In chapter 12 the serpent has grown in size to be the dragon. Once the manchild is caught up the Devil is unable to be enlarged any further and is cast down from heaven. The rapture of the manchild is a transaction which causes Satan to have no more position in heaven.There he has tempted God's people to sin. When they do sin he turns around and accuses them in their conscience that they are failures and could never live unto God. He also accuses God's people to God. He slanders the church to God. Yet he also slanders God to man's mind.Satan's job is to convince man that he, Satan, is god and that the true God is the enemy of man. His aim is to exactly reverse the truth within the minds of human beings. From the beginning he sowed suspicion into man's mind that God was not for the best interest of human beings.Here is what it says when the manchild, the collective overcomers, are raptured:"Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night.

​

And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of thier testimony, and they loved not their soul life even unto death." (Rev. 12:11,12)The injection of the Satanic nature into man at the fall caused the soul-life to come into existence. I do not say that the soul came into existence because God breathed into man the breath of life and man became a living soul.The soul-life means the soul which took on an independence from God and centered on itself in intense self love. The soul life is the hiding place of Satan. Satan as a kind of cosmic parasite has attached himself to mankind by means of man's independent and rebellious soul life.Christ taught that the disciples had to deny themselves, pick up thier cross and follow Him. They had to love Him before their independent and rebellious soul-life. Without exception every unbeliever, whatever their rational or reasons are for not believing in Christ, are held captive to their soul life and have enthroned their self as the center of all things.The overcomers employ the power of the blood of Christ to shut the mouth of the accuser. Here we see how the Apostle Paul employed Christ's redemption to strengthen his stand for God's purpose: The Christ who is within the believers as the Spirit of life (Roman 8:1,9-11) is also at the right hand of God interceding for the believers. Nothing can put them down. And no accusation from the enemy can stop them. Some remnant will continue in the faith all the way to the throne of God. They will arrive without blame and without blemish because of the judicial redemption of the blood and the organic transformation of the Spirit."These are they who more than conquer. These are they who overcome. These are they who accepted the death of their soul-life all day long in favor of enjoying the indwelling Christ. They accepted being put to death and being as sheep for the slaughter.Paul goes on to say: The overcomers of the manchild subjectively enjoy this full salvation. They are raptured to the third heaven strategically to drive down the rebellious Satan. The age is then only three and one half years from changing to the millennial kingdom.These last three and one half years are the great tribulation for those left on the earth whether Christian, Jews, or unbelievers. The world will be turned upside down and no longer be good for man to exist on until Christ physically comes down with His army of "more than conquerers." His army of the overcomers.Here we see this: But we praise God that the little snake is going to burn thanks to the Son of God."For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil." (1 John 3:8)Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Well the whole revelation is made known to us "by signs" (1:1).Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Reversespin,Did you say that you believed that the blower of the seventh trumpet was God Himself?Rather than going back to find the post I would just ask you?

I am thankful to God that we can see deeper and deeper into a book which is "not sealed". I think we can explore the riches of this book for a long long time to come discovering more significant things in the signs.To me "not sealed" doesn't quite mean that I cannot receive fresh revelation and light from its pages in times to come.

The belief in a being caught away physically to God is as old as the experience of Enoch in Genesis.Here is the concept of rapture. A saint of God has her or his inner being more with God in heaven than on the earth. This has occured over a period of time more and more as they walked with God.
Eventually, God rewards some of these God walkers by transporting them physically where their heart and spirit already are.To put it in a light hearted manner, Enoch walked with God for a couple of hundred years. He loved to walk in God's presence. communing with God and fellowshipping with God. One night Enoch was out walking with God and God said - "Enoch, you're closer now to My house than you are to your own. Why don't you just come home with Me tonight?"Now that is a little light hearted but reveals the truth. God chooses to vindicate some by removing them from the earth. But He only takes them because inwardly they are already removed in their devotion for God, their love for God, their obedience to God.For this reason rapture should not be a shock or a surprise. Rapture, when it occurs better be a sense of only being physically taken to where one's heart is already.The modern popular presentations of rapture as a shock should not be reliable. When one is walking step by step with God and her inner being is constantly enjoying God and being in His presence inwardly, physical rapture to God should not be a shock. You are simply removed in your body to a realm in which your heart already has been enjoying.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I have shared above that rapture should not be a shock to those who are walking with God. Like Enoch, one day they just will not be found.I have spoken about the strategic and even military aspect of the rapture of the manchild in chapter 12. In contrast to this rapture is the rapture of the Firstfruits in chapter 14. This too is a pre-great triblation rapture.It is interesting that while the the Scripture says that the manchild was caught up, the Firstfruits are simply seen standing on a heavenly Mt. Zion. No mention of a sudden removal from the earth to heaven. They simply are standing there. Of course the only way they could have gotten there is rapture. But I think the way their experience is depicted underlines what I said before.That is that these people simple are in the presence of God. They were on earth in God's presence in their inward being. They simply instantaneously appear physically where thier heart was, in the third heavens before Christ and His Father.There should be no question that the Firstfruits have been rapture to heaven and that they are not standing on an earthly Mt. Zion. Where does the sound of their singing come from? It comes from "out of heaven" (14:2). So they must have been taken there:"And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him a hundred and fourty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.

​

And I heard a voice out of heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harpers playing on their harps." (14:1,2)The manchild in chapter 12 will be deceased overcomers who are resurrected and raptured. The Firstfruits are living overcomers who will be raptured.The manchild were ripened firstfruits who fell asleep (died in Christ) and are waiting in Paradise. The firstfruits are living at the time just before the start of the great tribulation.The manchild mostly signify those who are for God's strategic move in warfare. The firstfruits signify those who are chiefly for the Father's satisfaction.The manchild meets God's need in warfare. The firstfruits meet God's need in satisfaction and enjoyment. He enjoys these who have fulling participated in the all-inclusive grace of Christ.The first fruits have been "purchased from t he earth" (14:3) indicating that they have been not only redeemed but taken off of the earth. They stand before the Lamb, the Redeemer Christ and before God and before the four living creatures. So they are in heaven unless someone can demonstrate that the four living creatures seen in chapters 4 and 5 are to appear on the earth in Israel on Mt. Zion.These firstfruits have been raptured to some heavenlt Mount Zion. The book of Hebrews says that positionally we the believers in Christ have come forward to the heavenly Mout Zion -"But you have come forward to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem; and to myriads of angels, to the universal gathering ..." (Heb. 12:22)We have come forward to the heavenly Mount Zion in spirit. And in the last days before the turn of the age some will physically be transported to stand where their spirit and heart have come forward to.But there is a problem. Most brothers and sisters I talk to about Revelation think that this 144,000 is the same 144,000 mentioned from the twelve tribes of Israel in chapter 7. I don't think it is the same group at this time. I think the spiritual number derived from 12,000 times 12,000 is used more than once in this prophecy.More about the firstfruits to come. They and the manchild are two groups which represent pre-great tribulation raptures. With one group, the manchild we see warfare for God. With the other group, the firstfruits, we see satisfaction for God.

No, they are not the same group of overcomers as are seen in 15:12,3, but they are overcomers. You see not all victorious oversomers are overcomers because of fierce persecution.Some overcomers are overcomers without the need of intense persecution. They simply and normally overcome in the normal enjoyment of God's grace under no particular world wide adverse circumstances.Here is what I mean.1.)God must be able to point to some overcomers and say to Satan "You see, I allowed you to persecute these people even to death. But they still loved Me and prevailed through My all sufficient grace. This is glory to Me and a shame to you."2.) God also must be able to point to some overcomers and say to Satan "You see? These people just had their everyday lives with not particular hard time (other than what daily human life presents) and they still loved Me and prevailed over your world. You tried to lure them with comforts of the modern age and distract them with conveniences and worldly entertainment. And they still prefered to love Me more and overcame. What a satisfaction to me and what a shame to you."The martyred overcomers in 15:2,3 have come through a "Red Sea" kind of experience of persecution as seen by them standing above the lake of fire "glassy sea mingled with fire" (15:2). As the Red Sea swallowed up the persuing armies of Pharoah so the lake of fire, God's eternal judgment, will swallow up the end time persecutors of Antichrist. And the overcomers stand above the eternal judgement because they prefered to be put to death rather than take the mark of the beast.The Firstfruits are the overcomers before the great tribulation starts who were living and never tasted death at all. These ones have a unique experience. They were born of God, lived overcoming lives, and went right up to heaven in rapture never tasting death.This experience accounts for the unique song that they sing which no one else could learn except the 144,000. For no one has their experience of a normal growth in the divine life unto ripeness under normal daily circumstances: No one can learn the new song sung by these first overcomers, a song that must be in accord with their experiences of the Lamb, because no one esle has their specific and partucular experiences of Christ.This virginity mention be the virginity mentioned by the Lord Jesus in [b]Matt. 19:11-12. However, the same principle could be applies to the female disciples, the sisters (1 Cor. 7:7,37)"Firstfruits," should indicate that they are the first ripe ones in God's field. Hence they are reaped before the Harvest as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. They simply were those following Christ in the last days in a normal way of absolute love for Him.The harvest will be reaped latter. According to chapter 14, the intense persecution of the beast is mentioned after the scene of these firstfruits standing on the heavenly Mount Zion (Rev. 14:9-12). They are mentioned before and not after the promise of blessing to those who die in the Lord under the terrible circumstances of verses 9-12. That promise is verse 13 - "And I heard a voice out of heaven, saying, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on. Yes,says the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; for their works follw with them (v.13)In chapter 14 we see three reapings. The Firstfruits, the Harvest, and the Grapes of Wrath. The Harvest and the Grapes of Wrath are mentioned after the description of the terrible circumstances of the great tribulation. The Firstfruits are mentioned before those circumstances. In between the reaping of the Firstfruits and the two reapings of the Harvest and the Grapes of Wrath is the overview of the days of the great tribulation. This is one reason why some of us believe that the Firstfruits are overcomers who mature without having to go through the great tribulation.Chapter 14 is not exactly a chronological continuation of chapter 13. In chapter 14 we step back and see the last days divided up into the main sequence of a number of events:1.) The scene of pre-great tribulation overcomers who followed the Lamb right up to Mount Zion in the heavens, well pleasing to God as the early ripe ones in His field (vv.1-5).2.) The eternal gospel preached by the angel in the air to earth's dwellers to fear God the Creator of the universe. This is to counter the threats of Antichrist for all people's to worship himself as god (vv.6-8)3.) The terrible persecution and martyrdom predicted under the Antichrist (vv. 9-12).4.) The promise of blessing to those who overcome unto death confirmed by the Spirit (v.13)5.) The Harvest of the majority of believers toward to end of the great tribulation (vv.14-16).6.) The final gathering of the evildoers at the end of the great tribulation into the wine press of God's wrath - Armageddon (17-20).Now where to the late overcomers in chapter 15 fit in? They should be those who overcome the persecution unto death to whom the word in #4 (14:13) applies.Firstfruits are living and early to mature. They are a glory to God of one kind. They are early overcomers.The ones standing on the sea of glass mingled with fire are late overcomers who were killed in thier faithful resistence. They are late overcomers.The Harvest that majority of living and deceased saints who apply to the Lord's coming at the end of the great tribulation. For not all believers will be killed by Antichrist.Now please hear this. verse 15 says "And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, Send forth Your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come because the harvest of the earth is ripe."(v.15)Literally the word there is dried. The harvest of the earth has become dried. To be ripe is to be "dried" of all earthly water. The suffering of the great tribulation, like the parching sun, will dry up the earthly water from the believers who are left on the earth in teh great tribulation, enabling the believers to be ripen.The earthly water that is dried up refers to the love and saturation of the worldly way of living. As Demas forsook Paul because of his love for the present age, so the vast majority of believers love the world and are immature because of thier worldliness.The Firsfruits became dry and ripe just by their normal love and following of the Lamb, Jesus Christ. That is a satisfaction to God and a unique experience among human beings. The Harvest will dry up only with the assistance of the terrible circustances of having been left on the earth during the great tribulation.At the first coming of Christ God made all His people His farm (1 Cor. 3:9). At His first coming Christ sowed Himself as the seed of life into His believers (Matt. 13:3-8,24). All believers since that time, who have received the seed of life, have become God's crop on the earth.The first ripe ones will be reaped as the firstfruits to God before the great tribulation as indicated vv. 1-5. The majority will ripen with the help of the sufferings in the great tribulation and will be reaped, raptured, at the end of the great tribulation.Three groups are a minority. The Firstfruits are a minority. The overcomers standing on the sea of glass mingled with fire are a minority. The Manchild is a minority. The Harvest is the majority of God's people saved down through the ages and those believers living through the great tribulation.When the minority of the Manchild is resurrected and raptured, the majority of the deceased saints are left to be taken up latter.When the minority of the living saints as Firstfruits are taken near or at the same time, the majority of living believers are left to pass through the great tribulation.When the majority of the living saints pass through the great tribulation some will become overcomers unto death. These are seen as the late overcomers standing above the lake of fire in 15:2-4.Each contributes a particular glory to God and vindication of God's faithfulness. I would like to respond to this at a latter time. That is all I can contribute tonight.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Perhaps, I have not made myself clear. One point I have made is that these Firstfruits of Revelation 14 are seen standing in heaven before the great tribulation. They do not go through it.They do not go through it because the lessons learned from such an experience they have learned without it. God must have some who ripen in the divine life without the great tribulation.Compare them to Enoch. Now, granted, Enoch knew what was coming on the world. And that gave him a strong incentive to walk with God. And he was taken from the earth because of his walk with God. He was spared the experience of the flood and the ark.Enoch is a testimony to God's faithfulness. Yet Noah is also a testimony to God's faithfulness. Both men render glory to God in thier own distinct ways.So it is at the end of this present age.Count the 144,000 Firstfruits as a corporate Enoch who, because of vigilence, walk with God, following the Lamb wherever He goes. And being pleasing to the Father, they are raptured pre-great tribulation.Did not the Lord Jesus promise that some would be saved from the hour of the trial?"Because you have kept the word of My endurance, I also will keep you from the hour of trial, which is about to come on the whole inhabited earth, to try them who dwell on the earth." In principle it is totally logical that some will keep the word of the Lord's endurance and some will not. We should not assume that automicatically ALL will. Neither should we be quick to assume that NONE will. The record of the history of God's people through the Scriptures indicates that a remnant of overcomers will fulfill the condition which merits the reward of being kept from the very hour of the great tribulation.And the only way to be kept from the "hour" of it is to be taken out of the world.Some Bible teachers I respect think that this 144,000 is the same group of sealed Jews in chapter 7. I have given some if my reasons why I believe it is a different group. And at the moment I don't feel to press the matter. Yes the manchild will be rewarded. That is plainly stated that they will shepherd the nations with an iron rod. Could you please quote now to me the passages in the KJV from chapter 19 which are most important to this view. Amen. This should be the normal way.
He is near. He is available. He is even within us as our life and life supply.Witness Lee & Watchman Nee teach regeneration Another excellent point. This is the way we should teach the Bible. In the way of life, in the way of application to the real and daily walk.I appreciate your fellowship. Right. Man is born to trouble as sparks fly upward. There is no need to look for tribulation. Troubles will come with daily life.Each trouble is an opportunity to be pressed into Christ and have to depend on His grace. The more will live by the supply of His all-sufficient grace the more we are conformed to His image. We are transformed from one degree of glory to another degree of glory as by the Lord's Spirit (2 Cor. 3:17,18).Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Thanks reversespin,. I think I get a little clearer picture of how you understand these passages.My response will likely take more than one post. But I will intersperse a few questions to see if I am understanding your understanding correctly. I also want to re-examine carefully the study notes in the Recovery Version on some of these matters.At least we will have a good feast of our own in the living and abiding word of God.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Reversespin, I comment on your paragraph below: The Bride and Wife in Revelation 19 is a remnant. And the remnant receive the reward to accompany Christ to defeat Antichrist. This Bride you see is a remnant who represents the total Bride which is not completed entirely until after the 1,000 years. The word "righteousnesses" may look like a typo to some, but this is how the translation of the word reads in the RcV. I believe that the KJV should read "righteous deeds of the saints"The word RIGHTEOUSNESSES does not refer to justification by faith as out rightous garment before God. Rather it refers to the righteous behavior, the righteous living, the righteous deeds that issue out of a consecrated life. The defeated believer does have justification by faith as a covering for the gift of eternal redemption. But only the overcomers have produced the RIGHTEOUSNESSES as their preparation for REWARD in the millennial kingdom.Do you understand? The righteous DEEDS rather than the positional righteous STANDING is what prepares the Bride for the reward to accompany Christ at this time. Now it is important to realize that the wedding garment of the bride is also her fighting garment. Compare Rev.19:8 with 19:14 The point here is that what qualifies these believers to be the bride at the wedding feast ALSO qualifies them to be the army of Christ at Armageddon. This is a matter of REWARD to the overcomers. And the total number of believers are not overcomers at this point.Now when we turn to Rev. 17:14 we see a description of the ones who accompany Christ to the final defeat of Antichrist before the millennial kingdom: In this passage there are THREE matters which qualify these saints to accompany Christ to overcome the beast with the Lord of Lords, Jesus.1.) called
2.) chosen
3.) faithfulI would call your attention especially to the third item - FAITHFUL. These ones are not only CALLED. They are not only CALLED and CHOSEN. They themselves have ADDED to these two matters their FAITHFULNESS.Are all the believers faithful? Many times we are not faithful even though we are called and chosen. The overcoming saints have added to the calling of God and the choosing of God the overcoming of FAITHFULNESS. For this faithfulness they are REWARDED both to represent the total bride though they are a remnant. And they are REWARDED to accompany Christ to Armageddon representing the total body of believers.As Gideon's army of 300 represented to entire nation of Isreal in a victorious battle, so these remnant of those faithful ones represent the entire body of Christ's redeemed. Called + Chosen + Faithful = overcoming and receiving the Reward of being the representative bride to the Lamb and the accompanying army to the Lord of lords at Armageddon.This matter of overcoming through our faithfulness and thereby receiving the reward is also revealed in Paul's warning to Timothy: To "reign with Him" we must faithfully fulfill the requirement to endure. We must, by His grace, keep the word of His endurance (Rev. 3:10). If we deny Him He will deny us. In this case the word is to Christian believers who are eternally redeemed. So this denying of the Lord is related to the loss of the reward of the millennial kingdom.If we are faithless (and every denial of the Lord by a Christian is due to a problem with faithfulness) He remains faithful for He cannot deny Himself. I believe this means that the believer is still eternally redeemed, eternally saved, though she or he looses the reward. He has regenerated us and put His life into us. He cannot deny Himself. We are born of God and cannot be UNborn of God.By this post I hope I have made clear that the wife who has made herself ready in chapter 19 has done so by overcoming through her faithfulness. We could be born of God and not be a part of this reward of the bride who has made herself ready. This decision is in the hands of the Lord Jesus at the judgment seat of Christ in the air after the Harvest is raptured and before He descends to the earth. The same is called the judgment seat of God (compare 2 Cor. 5:10 and Romans 14:10)Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Reverspin, My Cambridge KJV says "righteous deeds" and the English / Greek Interlinear NIV says rigthteous deeds.So I stand by "righteous deeds" or "righteous acts" or "righteousnesses" as the translation. Let me ask you this then. In First Corinthians 3 Paul writes:"If anyone's work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (1 Cor. 3:15)The ones whom Paul says will be saved, yet as through fire, and who suffer loss not receiving a reward - are they not also in possession of Christ as their righteousness?What about the five foolish virgins who return late to the marriage feast? Do they not also have Christ as their righteousness? Then on what bases are they chastized to miss the wedding feast? Do not missunderstand me. Even the rightouesnesses are by faith. That is the kind of faith the believes that Christ lives in us and will act in our acting. Didn't the Lord Jesus say that as branches we must abide in Him and without abiding in Him we can do nothing?So then if all believers have Christ as their righteousness, as I surely believe, then on what bases are there rewards and disciplines to believers?On what bases are there those who overcome in the seven letters to the seven churches in Revelation 2 and 3? Surely every member of the church by definition has Christ as their rigtheousness. That is true. But chapter 18 of Revelation is not about being saved. It is about being chosen to accompany the Lord Jesus to the marriage feast of the Lamb and to the Battle of Armegeddon.If you already admit that some of the foolish virgins are barred from participation in the marriage feast then you only have two choices of interpretation left:1.) The foolish virgins in Matt. 25 represent unbelievers who never were saved.2.) The foolish virgins are saved believers who become eternally lost and are unsaved in the future.Which position do you take?And if you say that both the wise and the foolish virgins are saved Christians then they BOTH have Christ as their righteousness. So then on what bases are the foolish ones rejected from participation in the marriage feast?The rest of your post reiterates your commitment to justification by faith for all believers. So which position do you believe:You are spreading the matter of justification by faith over an erea where it should not be spread. The issue here with the marriage feast reward and overcoming is not eternal redemption via the gift in grace. It is about qualifying for the reward not qualifying for the gift.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

No, the Cambridge King James Version that I have among other is not second class. It needs neither rebuke or pity. Cambridge Bible Publishers have been putting out the KJV probably since before either one of us was born.You can take it up with Cambridge whether or not their KJV is "Authorized" or not. I have no desire to get into whose KJV is more authorized. It is sufficient to my point that you do have a version which reads "righteous acts".As stated by you below. Am I right? So the New King James and the RcV both see the need to translate that word as plural righteous acts or righteousnesses. As does John Nelson Darby's New Translation.In case you didn't know, Scoffield in putting together the popular Scoffield Reference Bible, incorporated the theological study notes from J.N. Darby in Scoffield Bible. That was very solid Plymouth Brethren Fundamentalist theology.Had it not been for the solid Brethren teachers we probably wouldn't know anything about the Rapture one way or another. I agree. I completely agree.So a Christian may be eternally saved yet be punished, disciplined and lose a reward, when Jesus returns. Am I right?And if I am then perhaps you can see that Christ expects that the Bride would prepare herself with something in ADDITION TO - having Himself as their righteousness. Mainly that is having the righteous ACTS or Righteousnesses which qualify them for REWARD. I agree. How can I not agree.Yet some are saved yet as through fire. They also were cleansed from dead works. Were they not?IF the rapture is spoken to us in terms of warning, saying we should be watchful and ready, WHY then do we not say that there is no need to watch? Afterall our consciences have all been purged by the precious blood from dead works.You are extending verses with apply to eternal redemtion to wrongly cover for matters of dispensational reward and discipline to those who are saved. Is this what you meant to write? Is there any TYPO in this paragraph above? Because as it stands it does not make sense to me.Why would their name being in the book of life cause them to miss the wedding feast? Is that what you meant to write. Did you leave out a word? But in the parable they are arose and went forth to meet the Bridegroom at the same time.The call came that the Bridegroom had arrived and they all got up to meet Him. It does not say that five got up at one time and the other five got up many years latter.Should you not think this intepretation through again?If falling asleep means that they died. Then arising to trim the lamps must mean they are resurrected. Chapter 7 is an insertion. It serves the purpose to show that all the people that are God's will be preserved. Chapter 7 does not mean that the total number of saints will be raptured before the time of the great tribulation. It is an inserted vision with a general purpose. Generally, it shows that God will preserve all of His saints.And the great tribulation mentioned in chapter seven, I think should be understood not as that great tribulation of which we usually speak. It is the tribulation of the total history of mankind on the face of the earth. The whole history of man is a tribulation of great proportions through which God will bring all generations of His people.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I will return to the matter of the 144,000 Firstfruits on Mt Zion in chapter 14 being different from the 144,000 sealed from the twelve tribes of Israel.The group in chapter 14 are actually in contrast to the group in chapter 7.1.) The 144,000 in 7:4 were selected from "every tribe of the sons of Israel". But the group in chapter 14 is "purchased from the earth" and "purchased from among men".2.) The ones marked out in chapter 7 are marked "by the seal of the living God" (v.2). But those selected in chapter 14 have the name of the Lamb and the name of His Father written in their foreheads (v.1).This writing corresponds to the promise to the overcomers in the church in Philadelphia that Christ would write on them the name of His God (3:12). Therefore the 144,000 in chapter 14 are definitely taken from the church.3.) Another contrast between the two groups is that the multitude in 7:3 are "slaves" of God, while the ones in chapter 14 are sons of God as implied by the name Father. God is revealed in Revelation as the Father in relation to the church - (1:6; 2:27; 3:5,21).4.) The group in chapter 7 are related to Christ as the Angel (7:2) as in [b](Gen.22:11-12). But the group in chapter 14 are related to Christ as the Lamb (v.4), which is the title of Christ in His redemption.The Jews will not accept Jesus as "the Lamb" prior to seeing Him in glory (Zech.12:7-12; Matt.24:30).5.) Revelation tells us that the firstfruits in chapter 14 are "virgins". To the disciples of the Lord Jesus virginity is a gift (Matt.19:12; 2 Cor. 11:2). By contrast, to be a virgin among the Isaelites was a curse, whereas to marry and bear children was a blessing (Exo. 23:25; Deut. 7:14; Judges 11:38; 1 Sam. 2:5; Psa. 113:9).The two groups are therefore not the same in nature. The 144,000 on Mt Zion in chapter 14 are definitely New Testament believers.The standard argument debates that the 144,000 in chapter 7 are Jews who are saved after the beginning of the great tribulation. And the thrust of this argument is usually that it proves that the church is no longer on earth at that time and that these Jews are the primary witnesses on the earth in absence of the church.Of course individual Jews can become believers in Christ at any time. But as a national collective the Jews will not turn to Christ until the very end of that time when He comes in glory. Then they repent and mourn over this forsaken Son of God their Messiah.Secondly, the group in chapter 14 are not on the earth at all but thier voices are heard coming out of heaven. So they are on a heavenly Mt. Zion. That excludes the Jews being a witnessesing group on the earth. And according to the chronology of events from 14:6 to 16:21, the description in 14:1-5 is that of a situation at the beginning of the great tribulation. Is the Lamb of God Christ standing on the Mt. Zion in Israel at the beginning of the great tribulation? No, He is not. He does not come down to stand upon the earth until chapter 19.These facts make it necessary to reject the interpretation that the 144,000 in chapter 14 are a body of witnessesing Jews from the twelve tribes on the earth at that time.Have to go now.

You quoted a translation which read '"righteous acts".
"Righteousnesses" in the Recovery Version is what I trust and go by.I don't know a lot about how many unauthorized and authorized King James Vesions there are. I have been reading the Bible for over 38 years and have read if not entirely partially many English translations. I have no feeling whatsoever to exalt the "Authorized" King James Version above the rest as you do.I think you can get into teaching the traditions of men as the will of God, and that is undesireable. Claiming that the "Authorized" King James Bible is the ONLY reliable English translation of the New Testament is just the religious tradition of some men.Most of the English translations have their strengths in one place and their weaknesses in others. There are English versions I definitely prefer to others. But I do not exalt them as the sole and only means by which the Holy Spirit could lead people into the truth.I recommmend to anyone the Recovery Version and plan to use it for the rest of my life. But I freely consult 1901 American Standard, Darby, KJV, Emphasized, Amplified, Concordant, Greek ENglish Interlinear, Weymouth or other English translations when I wish to see how other translators have dealt with a problematic text. That is wonderful that you feel God wants you to use KJV. There is no question in my being that I have a similiar sense about the Recovery Version The Holy Bible Recovery Version.For me it is crucial that we see the big picture. To me it is a matter of spiritual and practical survival in these last days, that we have an overview of God's eternal purpose.One thing which is important to see is the distinction between gift and reward in God's economy.Romans 5:10 says For if we, being enemies, were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more we will be saved in His life,having been reconciled.This passage shows that there is a judicial side and a life side to God's full salvation. Or we may say a legal side - "reconciled to God through the death of His Son" and an "organic" side "much more we will be saved in His life".Through the death of Christ the believers are placed into a status in which they are no longer enemies of God. They are reconciled by His death. But there is a "much more" to experience after having been reconciled. Much more then we must be saved in the realm of His life. That means His life must grow and mature within us.We must go on from the judicial reconciliation to the much more saving in the life of Christ. We are in a position as believers, to be no longer the enemies of God. We are now in the position of being reconciled. We must now "much more" be saved organically, in a life way, in our entire personalities by abiding and remainin in the sphere and realm of Christ's life.Too often we neglect the "much more" salvation by and through the dispensing of Christ's life into our being.The passage under questions reveals that before the millennium the Bride has prepared herself by allowing the "much more" salvation in Christ's life to produce within her righteous deeds, righteous acts, reighteousnesses. And it is these acts coming out sponataenously of a life filled with Christ, that qualifies a remnant of believers to receive the reward.We have Christ as our righteousness. But in preparation for His coming we need the "much more" salvation by being filled with His life. And because we are filled with His life, our acts manifest Christ. Our deeds will then manifest Christ. These prepare us for the wedding feast. And it is foolish if we neglect this.Who neglects this "much more" aspect of full salvtion? Many believers who believe that it is only necessary that we be justified by the death of Christ. They assume that they may continued to live any way they wish because they have their "ticket" already.Well they are only partially right. They will bever perish. They have the gift of the eternal life. They will be there in the new heaven and new earth after the 1,000 years millennial kingdom. But where are they in regard to the reward of the millennial kingdom?The righteousnesses of the saints as a preparation for the wedding feast is crucial. So you will see me stand firmly with the clarity of the translation which reveals this truth. The rightoeus deeds, the righteous acts, the righteousnesses of the saints is their qualification to enjoy the reward of the wedding feast and the battle of Armageddon. I have been looking for this verse. I learned it a long time ago and believe it.However, I would not use this passage to prove that only the "Authorized" King James can be trusted to convey God's word to us. For one, not everyone in the world speaks English !Shall we tell the Chinese, Russians, the French, the Spanish, the African, the Norwegian, the Swedish, the Indian, etc. etc. that they all must learn to speak the king's English because it is only in the "Authorized KIng James Bible" God's revelation to man has been preserved? That is wonderful that we have such a reverance concerning His word. But it is a mistake to derive from this that only in the KIng James English translation which is "Authorized" mankind may have the only preserved form of God's word.Did Peter and Paul have the Authorized King James Bible?You get a good translation and you pray and look to God. You also derive help from fellowship with other members of the Lord's Body. And you derive help from scholarship.I do not read or write ancient Hebrew or Greek. Neither will I follow blindly anyone who does simply because they do. But I will derive help from the fellowship of those who have gone before to deal with problematic or questionable texts. Hopefully such helpers not only have head knowledge but personal experience with God.The Recovery Version is not only a great translation but the depth of experience of Christ lies behind the work, outlines, footnotes, and study notes of the version.King James Version is good also. I think the Recovery Version is better. I think that there is a word beyond the Greek and the Hebrew. That is the word of God.Have to discontinue for now.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.