What you want to know about Christ.

This places God in the driver's seat in the convincing of others that a particular set of beliefs is "The Way". So, if Jesus is God:1. Why isn't everyone convinced that Jesus is the savior?2. Why is it considered by most believers (Paul, the apostle, for one) that a lack of being convinced is the fault of the person who doesn't believe?Maybe we should look at it from a different perspective. There seem to be 3 different choices as nator pointed out.1. Your experience was real and it was Jesus providing you with real proof that he exists and is your salvation.2. Your experience was real and it was a demon that calls himself Jesus who is leading you away from the True God(s).3. Your experience was an emotional response to years of conditioning, some strain or stress in your life and an intense desire to find some meaning in this, apparantly, random existance.Admittedly, there is really no means to place quantifiable odds on the probability of any one of these possibilities. The first one seems more probable if God is seen as being able to provide each individual with convincing evidence of His existance. You have to agree that everyone does not appear to see this convincing evidence.
This lack of convincing evidence lends greater weight to the possibility of the other two of nator's options.So, giving each possibility the same probability, it appears that Jesus being the savior is less likely than the other 2 options. If option 2 is broken up into the multiplicity that it really represents (all the different Gods that Jesus could be pretending to usurp), then the probability of option 1 becomes vanishingly small.All the more reason that Jesus should provide convincing evidence of His being God to each individual. And, yet, He does not.Perhaps He lied when He said that He wanted all to come to Him?

How can you resist something that you are not even aware of? In summary: God gave you free will to resist accepting convincing evidence of His existance but that evidence is not manifested to you until you have already given up your free will and become His servant.Why does Jesus choose to remain hidden unless we already believe in Him?Your argument about Jesus taking away our free will if He provided convincing evidence of His existance does not hold water biblically. Satan saw God and Jesus face to face, yet he chose to rebel.I can see that the leader of IRAN exists yet I choose to not serve him.

I believe this was the crux of the questioning. If you can't demonstrate that it was real, how can you know it was?Jesus states rather emphatically that you should make disciples of all nations (people). What method does He expect you, his disciple, to use to convince others that He is really their savior?Tell you what...raise a couple of dead people...that might lend credence to your belief.

I am reasonably sure your pastor is glad you don't tell children this baloney in Sunday SchoolSeriously though, if someone were earnestly seeking the truth would you actually tell them that they should believe anything they want because no one can know anything anyway? Do you really care so little?If your God has so little to offer that He has to hide behind obfuscation and willful question dodging by His followers then perhaps He isn't worth the time of day. What happened to the I-sit-at-the-right-hand-of-God Jesus? All you seem to represent is the I-sit-on-the-dashboard-of-your-car Jesus. Do you really have so little respect for Him?Back to my question about Jesus (if gen is reading): Why does Jesus hide until after belief is professed?

I may have missed that one. I don't see her as wriggling around as much as I see her frustrated with your lack of respect for her honest question.Her question really has to do with your interpretation of your experience. How do you determine if it is Christ, a demon, or your own mind providing you with this experience?When did Christ say that you should treat particular people with disdain because of who they are or what they believe? Perhaps you could enlighten us as to the meaning of Christ's teachings in Matt 7:12 and 23:40 seeing as your actions in this case appear to violate both. I am willing to change my understanding of those lessons if you can show me how your disrespectful replies to nator and me are in keeping with Christ's requirements of his followers.So, I have a question similar to nator's. When praying for guidance, how do you know that the "answer" you receive is from God? Couldn't God just as easily allow a demon to lie to you (2Thes 2:11) or you could deceive yourself (Rom 1:28)? What is the method you use to make that distinction? You and I both know that there are sincere people who pray for guidance and act on what they truly believe God has told them....yet they turn out to be wrong.Have you ever been wrong when doing what you thought Christ told you to do? If so, how did that revelation differ from those where you turned out to be right?Edited by LinearAq, : Spelling, spelling...blasted spelling

Please point out the message # where nator asked you how you know what is real. I don't see it.Additionally, I find you to be disrespectful of me. I asked you to clarify how you could tell the difference between God, a demon and your own mind. Rather than answer my question, you proceeded to tell me that no one can tell if anything is real...several times in fact. It must be your mantra.Let us assume that your experience was real. How do you know it was from God and not someone/something else?You say you know God's voice. How? Because it is the same voice that you heard in your first experience? The problem is, you can't tell us how you knew it was God in the first experience. So, you may not be a true believer, just a deceived one.Maybe the 2Thes verse does apply to you because God sent the delusion to provide you with the first experience....and now you're completely immersed in it.

A friend of yours has the "experience" of God telling her that she can fly and needs to spread His word by flying around San Francisco. She says the she is going to jump off the Golden Gate bridge to start this flight as God has ordered her. So...do you de-humanize her by discounting her "experience", or do you let San Francisco Bay de-humanize her as she "experiences" deceleration trauma? I guess another option is that you actually believe she can fly.The line of questioning that this thread has degenerated to is whether or not a person can tell if their "experience" with Christ is actually an experience with Christ, OR an experience with another, lying, supernatural being, OR a figment of his imagination.For a truth seeker to know he has found the truth, shouldn't there be some defining characteristic of Christ that lets him know he is experiencing Christ?I can respect someone's belief to a point. I don't see how I can accept their belief as reality without something beyond their feeling an experience. If I did, then I would have to accept everything from Angelic Crystals to Zeus as real.

quote:

---

bigot -noun -- a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.

---

from Dictionary.comWell, you have a point there. Perhaps we are all bigots to some extent.I know I am a bigot concerning:
1. People who believe they are allowed to steal, kill and rape with impunity.
2. People who wish to remove the rights of someone because of their race, religion, sex or sexual orientation.
3. People who lie in the name of their God in order to financially profit from it.I am sure there are other examples with regard to my bigotry.However, I have never believed that we are supposed to be tolerant of everyone.
Opinions have value. Some have greater value (Do unto others...) and some have lesser value ("Fags should be killed"). The moment we decide that all opinions are of equal value, we cheapen humanity.For some strange reason, American society has started to believe that "my freedom of speach" means "my freedom from the consequences of or dissenting opinion about my stupid lame-ass harmful ideas that I just spouted out".Sorry, it doesn't work that way.When Freddy Phelps and his cult start their chants, they need to be countered at every turn. I may support their right to say stupid hateful things but I don't have to let it go unassailed. To let that kind of garbage go on without voicing the opposite opinion is to place us at their level. Good people doing nothing puts people like Phelps in charge.So Taz is a bigot...but he is intolerant of the things of which we should be intolerent.

Where did I say I would not consider them as equals? I just don't consider their point of view of value. I can even make them suffer small consequences for their point of view by not patronizing their business, or not voting for them in an election perhaps.Are you saying that in order to consider them as equals I must also accept and even espouse their ideas? If that is so then why are you speaking against me at all since you want to treat me as an equal to you? Please define the parameters that you think I must follow to be considered "tolerant". Making the silent majority (sheep) aware that the ideas are harmful. 1. Why is speaking against these people considered a "bad thing"?
2. Why is holding someone accountable for their opinions/actions considered a "bad thing"?More on topic.
1. What example did Jesus provide to us about this very issue?
2. Did Jesus say that all ideas and opinions have equal value?
3. What action did Jesus take when He noticed that merchants were using the temple to make a profit?
4. Would you consider that action intolerant?
5. Does taking that action make Jesus a "bad" person?