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Member (Idle past 867 days) Posts: 2339 From: Socorro, New Mexico USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Pick and Choose Fundamentalism | |||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
Taz writes: But in short, denying the whole deity thing has made me a much better person now. In fact, being an atheist makes me want to be yet a better person. It's really something that I feel religion could never do for me. Instead of caring for my fellow men (and women) because some god supposedly told me so, I've found better reasons to care. There is no doubt that there are many Atheists that are much better people than are some Christians. The converse is also true. Religion will never make anyone better, but I believe that God can. I am a Christian, not to with the goal of being a better person, or to get to heaven for that matter, but because I believe it is the truth. Can I prove it? Absolutely not. I'm not going to get dragged into yet another debate on it, but I believe that Christianity does a far better job of explaining the world that I experience than Atheism can. From my point of view it would take far more faith for me to be an Atheist than it does to be a Christian. If there really is a god and if he really is as all loving as people claim him to be, I highly doubt he'll judge me and condemn me to hell simply because I refuse continue to be the hating bigot I used to be.[/qs] I've posted this on other threads but I think it explains my position far better than I can. It is a quote from "The Last Battle" by CS Lewis. Aslan of course represents Jesus, Tash is an evil god and Aslan is talking to a soldier who served Tash and has found himself in the next life.
CS Lewis -- "The Last Battle" writes: So I went over much grass and many flowers and among all kinds of wholesome and delectable tree till lo! In a narrow place between two rocks there came to meet me a great Lion. The speed of him was like an ostrich, and his size was an elephant’s; his hair was like pure gold that is liquid in the furnace. He was more terrible than the Flaming Mountain of Langour, and in beauty he surpassed all that is in the world even as the rose in bloom surpasses the dust of the desert. Then I fell at his feet and thought, Surely this is the hour of death, for the Lion (who is worthy of all honour) will know that I have served Tash all my days and not him. Nevertheless, it is better to see the Lion and die than to be Tisroc of the world and live and not to have seen him. But the Glorious One bent down his golden head and touched my forehead with his tongue and said, Son thou art welcome. But I said, Alas, Lord, I am no son of thine but the servant of Tash. He answered, Child, all the service thou hast done to Tash, I account as service done to me. Then by reason of my great desire for wisdom and understanding, I overcame my fear and questioned the Glorious One and said, Lord, is it then true, as the Ape said, that thou and Tash are one? The Lion growled so that the earth shook (but his wrath was not against me) and said, It is false. Not because he and I are one, but because we are opposites, I take to me the services which thou hast done to him. For I and he are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him. Therefore if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath’s sake, it is by me that he has truly sworn, though he know it not, and it is I who reward him. And if any man do a cruelty in my name, then, though he says he says the name Aslan, it is Tash whom he serves and by Tash his deed is accepted. Dost thou understand , Child? I said, Lord, thou knowest how much I understand. But I said also (for the truth constrained me), Yet I have been seeking Tash all my days. Beloved, said the Glorious One, unless thy desire had been for me thou wouldst not have sought so long and so truly. For all find what they truly seek. Edited by GDR, : No reason given. Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
Ringo writes: What's wrong with it being a myth? If by myth he means that the whole story is completely frabicated with no historical foundation whatsoever then I disagree, but frankly it isn't a huge issue with me.
Ringo writes: What's wrong with the whole Bible being a fabrication? If they fabricated the "God told us to do it" part, how do you know which other parts are (not) fabricated? We've been down that road before. I'll repost that other CS Lewis quote that I've used before about the Bible and mythology. Once again it explains my position better tahn I can myself.
CS Lewis writes: Just as, on the factual side, a long preparation culminates in God’s becoming incarnate as Man, so, on the documentary side, the truth first appears in mythical form and then by a long process of condensing or focusing finally becomes incarnate as History. This involves the belief that Myth is ... a real though unfocused gleam of divine truth falling on human imagination. The Hebrews, like other peoples, had mythology: but as they were the chosen people so their mythology was the chosen mythology - the mythology chosen by God to be the vehicle of the earliest sacred truths, the first step in that process which ends in the New Testament where truth has become completely historical. Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
Taz writes: It really seems to me that everytime this issue comes up it's always us atheists who are trying to tell the christian side that it's immoral to run a sword through a 1 year old no matter how you look at it. It's not just that. It's also other issues such as gay rights and whatnot. I rarely ever see professing christians standing up for human rights. This is why I don't believe there is such a thing as a silent majority. The evidence simply doesn't exist for the existence of the silent majority. Don't judge the entire world wide Christian community by the North American experience. It seems that in many churches believing in Biblical literalism is something of a litmus test and so it is often easier for someone who has experienced God in their life to just go along. When questioned about whether they believe things like God telling his people to go and kill whole communities they very quickly waffle. Any form of racism is anti-Christian. Christians played a leading role in the abolition of slavery. How about Martin Luther King or Nelson Mandella.
Taz writes: But anyway, if next time one of these people decide to go on a rampage and claiming acts of genocide was on god's order, would you come and tell him not to read it literally if I somehow could bring your attention to it? I'll try but it isn't easy. Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes: If by myth he means that the whole story is completely frabicated with no historical foundation whatsoever then I disagree.... I'm asking: if the whole story (or most of it) was fabricated, what would be the problem with that? How would it effect your beliefs? Are there some parts that are "deal breakers", that would destroy your faith if they weren't literally true? If so, how do you pick and choose which bits are allowed to be myth/metaphor and which are not? Edited by Ringo, : Added emphasis. “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels ------------- Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Paulk, you showed your ignorance in the Olivet Discourse that you don't dig eschatology being most of the educated escatological Drs of Divinity would have sided more with me in that debate than with you who tried to apply the prophecy to contemporary times when the proclamation was made including the 1900 year dispersement of the Jews worldwide.
BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
Equinox writes: Alas - I wish you were right. The data doesn’t seem to support that. I thought that too for a long time because the majority of the Christians I knew were moderate, loving people like you. However, I’m liberal, with a liberal circle of friends and as we know, our own anecdotal evidence is terribly biased by a small sample size. As I said in a previous post American Christians only make up a part of the world wide church. Frankly I don't consider myslef a liberal. I am an orthodox Anglican by denomination but I at my very core I am Christian. I realize that there are many who would characterize me as liberal but there are others who would characterize me as conservative. To be honest I'm just another pilgrim trying to muddle my way through life, trying to sort out the truth and the fiction. I am convinced though that the message of God is that we are to always choose love. It isn't always easy to sort that out however in practice even though it sounds so simple. Was it more loving to the people of Iraq to leave them with Saddam or to try and liberate them? My view is that it was a mistake but I'm not absolutley positive. (99% however) How do you turn the other cheek on behalf of a third party?
Equinox writes: I think this is because the fundamentalists challenge moderate Christians to support their views using the Bible, and when they try to, they realize that the Bible supports fundamentalism (I’ve read it cover to cover, and I agree with the fundamentalists on this point). So, they are faced with a choice - uphold the Bible and become fundamentalist, or leave Christianity all together. I strongly disagree that the Bible supports fundamentalism. Here is a paper written by N.T. Wright who is currently the Bishop of Durham England. In my view he is the foremost theologian in the world today, but of course that is a subjective view and I am not even aware of the vast majority of theologians. It is a fairly long read, but I believe it is worth it. http://www.biblicaltheology.ca/...0Post%20Modern%20World.pdf Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
NJ writes: I don't really know what a literalist is any more than I know what a fundamentalist is. The meanings have become too obscured, especially since those who call themselves literalists recognize the difference between allegory and commonality. There certainly is a blurring of the lines. The limus test for that seems to be the idea of a 6000 year old world which is a touch ludicrous because how does knowing how old the Earth is tell us anything about God or how we should react to Him.
NJ writes: What I see sometimes is passages that state something happened only to have someone speculate that it was sanctioned by God just because its found in the Bible. Often times it is just listed as a historical fact that is not giving any indication as to how God dealt with it. Others are not so unambiguous. It all depends on the passage. True enough but this particular story ends with this: So the Lord was with Joshua, and his fame spread throughout the land. Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
Ringo writes: I'm asking: if the whole story (or most of it) was fabricated, what would be the problem with that? How would it effect your beliefs? Frankly it wouldn't. If it could be proven that is entirely a fabrication then I would assume that the story was included to tell a story metaphorically within the context of that 2000 plus year old culture.
Ringo writes: Are there some parts that are "deal breakers", that would destroy your faith if they weren't literally true? If so, how do you pick and choose which bits are allowed to be myth/metaphor and which are not? Christianity tells the story of God and His creation but without the resurrection there is no Christianity. Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes: Christianity tells the story of God and His creation but without the resurrection there is no Christianity. I can see I'm not using enough boldface. I asked: HOW do you pick and choose which bits are allowed to be myth/metaphor and which are not? I'm trying to find a difference between a Christian who claims the earth must be 6000 years old and a Christian who claims Jesus must have risen from the dead. I'm not asking for empty opinions. I'm asking for self-awareness. “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels ------------- Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
Ringo writes: I asked: HOW do you pick and choose which bits are allowed to be myth/metaphor and which are not? In general I don't make the distinction nor find a need to. I read the story in Genesis as if it were true to learn what I can from it and it makes no difference if the story is literal or allegorical. If I'm pressed to make a decision on the subject I use any historical or scientific evidence I'm aware of that may apply, consider whether it is consistent within its context and is it consistent with the His message of love. Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Paulk, you showed your ignorance in the Olivet Discourse that you don't dig eschatology being most of the educated escatological Drs of Divinity would have sided more with me in that debate than with you who tried to apply the prophecy to contemporary times when the proclamation was made including the 1900 year dispersement of the Jews worldwide. I am guessing that you actually mean Eschatology or "The Theology of let's see what we can pull out our ass since our last 100 predictions about End Times went by unfulfilled." For some information that is the joke called End Time Prophecy, Check here. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes: If I'm pressed to make a decision on the subject I use any historical or scientific evidence I'm aware of that may apply... What scientific or historical evidence applies to the resurrection of Jesus?
... consider whether it is consistent within its context and is it consistent with the His message of love. What does the resurrection have to do with His message of love? “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels ------------- Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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Taz Member (Idle past 3322 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
GDR writes:
While it is true that the people you mentioned were christians and also played a major role in the abolition of slavery and whatnot, I would argue that the concept of human rights did not come from their christian beliefs. In fact, the southern slave owners had the high grounds when it came to biblical support for owning slaves. Any form of racism is anti-Christian. Christians played a leading role in the abolition of slavery. How about Martin Luther King or Nelson Mandella. The same thing with racism. It was supreme court justice Warren that said the following:
quote: Again, when the issue of human rights in regard to race wasn't so obvious, the racists had the high grounds in the debate. When it came to women suffrage, the sexists had the high grounds when it came to biblical support. The same damn thing is happening right now in regard to gay rights. It's bleedingly obvious to us atheists that gay people shouldn't be treated as second class citizens, and yet the christian side is doing everything they can to stop social progress in this sense. The idea of human rights didn't spawn from religion. It spawned from human reason. Christianity existed for 2,000 years with little progress in regard to human rights. This fact alone should tell you that the very idea of human right isn't part of the christian tradition. Disclaimer: Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style. He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!
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anglagard Member (Idle past 867 days) Posts: 2339 From: Socorro, New Mexico USA Joined: |
GDR, just to let you know first, I have no quarrel with your beliefs since as best I can tell, as they do not apparently intend to interfere with the declaration or practice of mine.
GDR writes: Any form of racism is anti-Christian. Christians played a leading role in the abolition of slavery. How about Martin Luther King or Nelson Mandella. Oops, King was Civil Rights, Mandela was anti-apartheid. Except for a handful of Arab nations, slavery has been illegal for quite some time. I believe the last 'major' nation (at the time) to officially outlaw slavery was Brazil in 1888. The main original opponents of slavery were Quakers. From: Atlantic slave trade - Wikipedia
quote: The problem with Christianity overall as being a force against slavery is made difficult by the rules concerning the treatment of slaves in Leviticus, along with other references. This line of inquiry is however going far afield of my original intent in this thread, which is to discuss why every word in Genesis must be accepted literally and without thought, examination, or the exercise of critical thinking as being from the direct dictation of God while other books, such as Deuteronomy, Leviticus, or even the entire content of the NT can be ignored however the supposed adherent chooses. Edited by anglagard, : clarity Edited by anglagard, : grammar Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
Ringo writes:
From your perspective it there is no connection. From my perception it is an example of self-sacrificing love.
What does the resurrection have to do with His message of love? Ringo writes: What scientific or historical evidence applies to the resurrection of Jesus? As has been pointed out we are going off topic somewhat so I'll be brief. Jesus was one of many who claimed to be the Messiah, (anointed one) during that period. In the majority of cases the would be messiahs were put to death bringing their movement to an abrupt end. Subsequent to their deaths they were just viewed as failed messiahs. When Jesus was put to death his followers assumed that He was another failed messiah and so they went back to their fishing and other occupations. Only one of them, (John) even showed up for the crucifixion. However, after the crucifixion this very suddenly all changed. Now his followers were prepared to commit their lives to continuing the movement, even to imprisonment and death. Something had to have happened and the most sensible conclusion to come to in my view is that they were relating their actual experience of the resurrected Jesus. Paul is another interesting character. Here was a Pharisee with power, influence, prestige, financial security etc who gives it all up to spread Christianity to the Gentiles no less. Not a great career move. I can't see him doing this on a whim. Here is a list of known messianic wannabes of that period. There is only one we still hear about today. 1. Judas, son of Hezekiah (4 BCE)2. Simon of Peraea (4 BCE) 3. Athronges, the shepherd (4 BCE) 4. Judas, the Galilean (6 CE) 5. John the Baptist (c.28 CE) 6. Jesus of Nazareth (c.30 CE) 7. The Samaritan prophet (36 CE) 8. King Herod Agrippa (44 CE) 9. Theudas (45 CE) 10. The Egyptian prophet (52-58 CE) 11. An anonymous prophet (59 CE) 12. Menahem, the son of Judas the Galilean (66 CE) 13. John of Gischala (67-70 CE) 14. Vespasian (67 CE) 15. Simon bar Giora (69-70 CE) 16. Jonathan, the weaver (73 CE) 17. Lukuas (115 CE) 18. Simon ben Kosiba (132-135) 19. Moses of Crete (448) Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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