English, gender and God

John responds to me:

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Since this thread has seemingly petered out, I'll restrict my comments to a single point.

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So you concede the other points then?

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No.However, I concede that no further progress can be made.

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Except it isn't archaic.

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Please do me the favor of responding to what I said, rather than responding to a mis-statement of what I said.

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You didn't call it archaic?Do I really need to go through all the posts and present you with your own words again?

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Equally foolish is the insistence upon a usage that is quickly becoming archaic.

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But it isn't even becoming archaic. It's still a common word. I hear it often enough.

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Now let's look at this. I said the term 'niggardly' is rapidly becoming archaic. Take a look at the word's cognates-- niggard, niggardise, niggardish, niggardness, niggardous, niggardship. hmmmm... they've already become archaic according to my dictionary.

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But we're not talking about the cognates. We're talking about "niggardly." It isn't even becoming archaic. It's still in common use. Not long after the Howard incident, a teacher was investigated since she taught her class the word.

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Consequently, when someone tries to analyze the adjective they wind up associating the word with the 'wrong' root and the meaning changes.

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That simply means they don't know the language. "Niggard" is not archaic, either.Just because you misheard what I said does not mean I misspoke or "should have known better."Do we dumb everything down to a fifth-grade level lest we offend somebody?I was watching the French Open the other day and the commentator was talking about one of the athletes as a "game, young player." What I first heard was "gay, young player." Did I go ballistic? Of course not. I simply realized that I misheard what was said and corrected my own error. I didn't accuse anybody of any malfeasance, didn't immediately ascribe ulterior motives to anyone, or anything else along those lines.I simply acknowledged that I misheard what was said.If you mishear, that is not my fault.

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I don't know where you live, but I hear the term often enough.

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I haven't heard the word in 25 years, except for the issue in question.

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So we need to dumb everything down to a fifth-grade level?

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When I learned the word, it most definitely had racial connotations. That is how everyone used it. Usage is the ultimate determinant of meaning.

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Where did you learn it that it had racial connotations?Be specific.And yes, usage is the ultimate determinant of meaning.And the word has never had racial connotations in any mainstream usage.Do not confuse the word "niggardly" with a word that is spelled differently and pronounced differently (though somewhat similar).

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He had no reason to think that the people to whom he was speaking wouldn't know a common word.

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Except that it isn't a common word.

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Except that it is.And thus, there is nothing more to discuss.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

schraf, sweetie, honey, baby, pussycat....You seem to think that I have a problem with being called "gay."Were you planning on setting me up on a date with someone?------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

schrafinator responds to me:

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And the word (niggardly) has never had racial connotations in any mainstream usage.

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Then why did a whole bunch of people get really upset when the politician used it?

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Because what they heard was not what he said. He said "niggardly." They heard a different word that is spelled differently but sounds quite a bit like "niggardly."As I said elsewhere, I was listening to the French Open the other day and one of the commentators was talking about one of the players, calling him a "game, young contender." What my ears heard, however, was "gay, young contender."(*blink!*)Did he just say that? Since I keep the closed-captioning on my TV turned on, I could follow the transcript and sure enough, it turns out that I misheard. Of course, I didn't need to look at the transcript because the context of the conversation was all about how this particular player was doing well in the tournament, had managed to exceed previous efforts, is working hard, and has promise to become one of the better players on the tour.

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Isn't "a whole bunch of people" qualify as "the mainstream?"

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Not if they misheard.Despite what everybody says, Mae West never said, "Why don't you come up and see me sometime"? Humphrey Bogart never said, "Play it again, Sam" in Casablanca. And so on and so forth.Yeah, lots of people think they did, but wishing doesn't make it so.

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Oh, and like John, I haven't known that word to be used at all in 25 years or more.

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A friend of mine used it just last night.

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In other words, I have never heard it used in common usage in 25 years.

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Lucky you. Page not found | Charlotte Mecklenburg StoryFor a city of its size, Charlotte may still be described as conservative, but not unreasonably so. Twenty years ago a research specialist, reporting on Charlotte's governmental affairs, wrote: "The state tax limitation for parks and recreation necessitates the present niggardly budget of $22,000, but it is unlikely that the council would be willing to appropriate more if it could."By the way...that was the very first hit I got when searching for "niggardly budget accountant," since I was looking for the exact quote of Howard but forgot his name. You will notice that it has nothing to do with Howard.But wait...there's more: Etiquette International - The Art Of Gift GivingBeware of excessive spending. It is as much a faux pas as niggardly gift giving and may force the recipient to return your lavish gift. A gift from a junior executive to a client need not exceed $25. Mid to upper management should consider spending up to $50, while a senior executive may want to spend up to $100 for their best customers. A gift costing more than $100 would only be given in very special circumstances. No webpage found at provided URL: http://209.157.64.200/focus/news/802156/postsAs Charles Rossotti stepped down as the respected IRS commissioner last month, he warned that the niggardly budget for compliance has made complex cheating schemes relatively risk free. No webpage found at provided URL: http://chapelhill.indymedia.org/news/2003/04/4397_comment.phpThe outspoken Anarchists of the "Serpent" disappear as they revel in the lawlessness that enables the Niggardly Asinine Zionist Media(NAZM) to paint a rosy picture of the social upheaval brought about by the Nazi takeover of a country(52651 & 132033).Again...I don't know where you live, but I see it being used all the time.And that took all of 15 seconds to look up.

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However, I would like to continue to compliment you on your gay attutude in all of this debate.

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Why thank you. I intend to continue to saunter gayly forward (as opposed to "going straight.")You seem to be of the opinion that there is something wrong with being gay or being perceived as gay...at the very least that I should be taking some sort of offense at it.Were you planning on setting me up on a date with someone?Then why does it matter?------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

John responds to me:

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I've noticed something about you, Rhhain. You tend to repeat the assertions you started with while avoiding challenges made to those assertion.

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Incorrect. I address the challenge head on by showing how it doesn't deal with the logic I have presented.The reason I keep asking the same questions over and over is because they keep not getting answered.

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For one, you insist that 'niggardly' is a common word, but have you addressed my objection that I cannot find it in ANY survey of common English words?

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Because without any idea as to what "survey of common English words" you're referring to, how can I possibly respond.After just 15 seconds of searching, I found the following: Page not found | Charlotte Mecklenburg StoryFor a city of its size, Charlotte may still be described as conservative, but not unreasonably so. Twenty years ago a research specialist, reporting on Charlotte's governmental affairs, wrote: "The state tax limitation for parks and recreation necessitates the present niggardly budget of $22,000, but it is unlikely that the council would be willing to appropriate more if it could."By the way...that was the very first hit I got when searching for "niggardly budget accountant," since I was looking for the exact quote of Howard but forgot his name. You will notice that it has nothing to do with Howard.But wait...there's more: Etiquette International - The Art Of Gift GivingBeware of excessive spending. It is as much a faux pas as niggardly gift giving and may force the recipient to return your lavish gift. A gift from a junior executive to a client need not exceed $25. Mid to upper management should consider spending up to $50, while a senior executive may want to spend up to $100 for their best customers. A gift costing more than $100 would only be given in very special circumstances. No webpage found at provided URL: http://209.157.64.200/focus/news/802156/postsAs Charles Rossotti stepped down as the respected IRS commissioner last month, he warned that the niggardly budget for compliance has made complex cheating schemes relatively risk free. No webpage found at provided URL: http://chapelhill.indymedia.org/news/2003/04/4397_comment.phpThe outspoken Anarchists of the "Serpent" disappear as they revel in the lawlessness that enables the Niggardly Asinine Zionist Media(NAZM) to paint a rosy picture of the social upheaval brought about by the Nazi takeover of a country(52651 & 132033).Again...I don't know where you live, but I see it being used all the time.Now, think about that last statement. There's a reason that I've said it before: Is it not true that "common words" are not consistent over groups? Remember my anecdote about a friend who blew up because another friend used the word "ubiquitous"? I'm sure you and I don't find that word to be too bizarre, but my friend did.Maybe it's just my luck that I happen to live around people who know the word and use it. But they do exist.Yet another friend of mine used it just last night.

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Where did you learn it that it had racial connotations?
Be specific.

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East Texas.

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Well, there you go. In New Mexico, we didn't have that problem, but what can you expect from Texas? At one point, there was a guy who was raising money to build a wall around Texas, ostensibly to keep non-Texans out. The largest contributions, both in size and number, came from New Mexico.We didn't have that problem is Caliornia, either.

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What usage is it that is causing all the trouble now?

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People hearing a different word entirely and being so sensitive to the issue of racism that even when they are shown that there was no racism involved, are absolutely certain that there had to be.People are certain that Bogart said, "Play it again, Sam" in Casablanca...but he didn't. The only reason they don't have the same visceral reaction is because there is no social dynamic involved in whether or not Bogart said it. Racism is a serious issue, however, so there is a much deeper response to scenarios that might be deemed racist.

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Don't be a child.

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Then stop behaving like one. I'm only responding to the level you are giving out.

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Address some of the points raised.

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I did. That you don't want to respond to them simply means that there is nothing more to discuss.Let it go.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Mister Pamboli responds to me:

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Curious examples Rh chooses to show the common use of the word niggardly today.

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Why? Like I said...that took a whole of 15 seconds. It wasn't like I was trying very hard.

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The first three are all in the context of budgeting. Two explicitly use the term niggardly budget - one from 60 years ago(!)

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You need to read it again. It wasn't 60 years ago.

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and one postdating Howard's case which brought the phrase into the public eye.

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No, not apparently. After all, they were using it beforehand. What was brought to the public was the reaction to it.

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Really all this shows is that niggardly budget may be a cliche in the circle of those who discuss budgeting.

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Considering that "niggardly" means "stingy," is that really such a bizarre thing?

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Your fourth example is from a web page which is hardly representive of common English usage - for one thing the word niggardly is used here to construct the acronym NAZI and a related acronym NAZM.

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And why is that a bad thing? You seem to be saying that because people you don't like are using the word, that somehow has an effect on whether or not the word is being used "legitimately."

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However, the fact that the word sounds as if it might be one is reason to consider context very carefully before using it.

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I, too, would agree with this caveat. Make sure you're not in front of a group of people who will go ballistic over words they might not know.

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As ever, the onus in the natural course of language is on the speaker or writer to take account of their audience or readership, rather than the formalized social niceties built on an idealized view of language that Rh seems to prefer.

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No, I say it goes both ways. Just as it is vitally important for a speaker to consider the audience, it is just as important for the audience to consider the speaker...including making sure that you didn't mishear.A person can be the most careful of speakers but if the audience mishears, then there is a problem which the speaker has no control over.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

schrafinator responds to me:

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schraf, sweetie, honey, baby, pussycat....
You seem to think that I have a problem with being called "gay."

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Were you planning on setting me up on a date with someone?

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Do you have a pussy?

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If by "pussy" you mean "pussycat," no longer, I'm afraid...my cat died from pacreatitis a couple years ago.If by "pussy" you mean something else, well, I'd have to know what you meant. (*blink*) (*blink!*) (*innocent look!*)------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Mister Pamboli responds to me:

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Why? Like I said...that took a whole of 15 seconds. It wasn't like I was trying very hard.

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It shows - a little more effort in actually reading the links rather than just grepping the term would have perhaps been appropriate.

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Why? You were saying that nobody uses it. And yet in 15 seconds, I found references that reach from current usage (and your claim of "after the big hullabaloo" is disingenuous at best) going back 20 and 40 years.And I didn't even include any foreign references. Pages and pages of Irish and Indian references. Perhaps my crowd runs towards British mannerisms (my job of the last 3 years was at Sony which has a very large contingent of immigrants from India), so perhaps that's another bias. However, the fact remains that it is hardly as uncommon as you claim. In a brief time, I found many references that had nothing to do with the Howard or the teacher incidents.

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You need to read it again. It wasn't 60 years ago.

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You're right. 62 years. Sorry.

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No, try again.Does the number 20 mean anything to you? It was a report from the 80s that made reference to a statement from the 60s. And it did not feel the use of the word "niggardly" to be unusual. It made no comment about it but treated it as simply a common word. It didn't even attempt to define the term.

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I would be interested to see if there are any examples of recent common usage of niggardly pre-dating the publicity over Howard's usage.

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I already did. I guess I'll need to ask you what you consider to be "recent."

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So far you have only come up with an older use of "niggardly budget" which, as I have pointed out, could as easily be explained as a cliche.

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No, it could be attempted to be explained as a cliche, but nothing in the text indicates that it was considered a cliche.

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And why is that a bad thing? You seem to be saying that because people you don't like are using the word, that somehow has an effect on whether or not the word is being used "legitimately."

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You misunderstand. It is not the writer's opinions that interest me in this case, but the fact that he is using the word to form an acronym. Using a word specifically to fit an acronym hardly counts as common usage.

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Why?Be specific.

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No, I say it goes both ways. Just as it is vitally important for a speaker to consider the audience, it is just as important for the audience to consider the speaker...including making sure that you didn't mishear.

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Again you are being presciptive rather than descriptive.

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No, I'm being realistic and polite. Communication is a two-way street. Before you accuse anybody of any sort of ulterior motive or offensive stance, you make sure that you heard it correctly. And then you make sure that you understand the plain meaning of what it is that you heard. And then you ask if the person who said what you think was inappropriate for clarification ("Did you really mean 'X'?") And only after all that shows that you did hear correctly, it does generally mean that, and the person really did mean that do you conclude that there is something to get upset over.If you short circuit this process, you leave yourself open for screwing up big time and if the listener continues to be a jerk and insists that the speaker is responsible for the listener's failure, he'll deserve the derision that would be understandably heaped in his general direction.I don't deny the listener's feelings. I do deny that he has any reason to be upset and his insistence on remaining pissed off is indicative of someone who is more interested in being angry than on doing anything about it.

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I was simply describing that in the natural use of language, speakers disambiguate. You might not like it, but that's the way it goes.

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I don't deny that.I do deny that they have any justification for remaining pissed off when all evidence clearly shows that they're the ones that screwed up.When the Mars probe from a couple years ago bounced off the atmosphere because some engineers at NASA used the Imperial system when everybody else was using metric, it was their fault. It doesn't matter that the Imperial system is just as good a method of mensuration (being completely arbitrary just like the metric system). They screwed up. It was their fault. They should have checked. And in this day and age, who on earth uses Imperial for anything scientific?

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You seem determined to impose social rules on people to suit what you apparently see as your superior use of language.

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Not so much language as it is simple etiquette.It is inapprorpriate to accuse somebody of something unless you have good cause. And that means making sure that you heard correctly, that you understand what you heard, and that the person wasn't misspeaking.

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Unfortunately, it comes across as arrogant, which I hope is not the case - perhaps this is a pose for the anonymity of the internet and in real life you are not quite so obstreperous?

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I love getting psychoanalyzed over the interent. I always learn such wonderful things about myself!Have you considered the possibility that it is extremely arrogant of you to assume that a person who uses a word correctly is somehow at fault for not taking the possible stupidity of his audience into account when one would actually expect some amount of education?

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BTW and off topic - did you get round to Carpe Jugulum? I'm not a great Pratchett fan at all, but this was an excellent long-haul-flight read.

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Just started it. The stash of Discworld books is at my friend's house (the same one with the cat mentioned elsewhere), so I only get to read it when I go visit them.I think Small Gods is a good look at the way religion and religious thought works.You might try Nanny Ogg's Cookbook. It includes the recipe for Dried Frog Pills. The first step is to carefully take no frogs and do not dry them.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

schrafinator responds to me:

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Why, what do you mean?

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Just wondering. So many people here have been disingenuous in their terms that I just wanted to clarify.

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The common usage where I'm from, (and I assume, therefore, that it's like that everywhere or that at least it SHOULD be) means "cat".

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Well, the problem is that you didn't use the word I used.You see...I said, "pussycat," and then you said, "pussy." And again, since so many people seem to be eager to play little word games (you, for example), you can understand that I might ask for clarification just to make sure that I understood what you were trying to say.I wouldn't want to accuse you of something you didn't actually do.That would be rude.You wouldn't want me to be rude, would you?

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You were confused? Well, what kind of fifth-grade educated moron are you?

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When did confusion equate to being a moron? It isn't like I don't understand the word. I'm just asking for clarification to make sure I understand what you're saying so as to prevent future misunderstandings and possible bad feelings.See...here we have the crux of the problem: You're more interested in being angry than in comprehension. Did I accuse you of anything when I asked for clarification? No. And yet, you respond with ad hominem commentary.

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Now, why don't we talk about cocks?

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Which ones? There are at least three possibilities I can think of.By the way, bonus points for those who know where "sweetie, honey, baby, pussycat" comes from.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Mister Pamboli responds to me:

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By the way, bonus points for those who know where "sweetie, honey, baby, pussycat" comes from.

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Little Shop of Horrors - but not sure if it's original to that.

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That's what I was thinking of. While I'm sure somebody somewhere had said it before Menken and Ashman (after all, it's being said by an agent: "Seymour Krelborn! Sweetie, honey, baby, pussycat! Hey, Seymour Krelborn, you prince, you! My name is Bernstein; I'm with NBC. I came down here to convince you to do a weekly TV show for me"), they certainly gave it a boost.It really doesn't have the same impact without that inflection.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

schrafinator responds to me:

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Imagine, Rrhain didn't immediately understand my use of the words "gay" and "pussy", and it looks like he's having trouble with the OBVIOUS meaning of "cock", as well!

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Incorrect.I understood perfectly, I just wasn't playing the game you wanted to play.

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I mean, surely, along with "niggardly", all of these words are used by people in everyday speech to mean what I mean them to mean and in no other way, right?

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Logical error.You're comparing apples and oranges. You see, "niggardly" has only one meaning. "Pussy" and "gay" and "cock" have multiple meanings. Thus, to say, "Let's talk about cocks," with absolutely no context is ambiguous.Now, since we were talking about animals previously, there's a good chance that by "cocks," you were referring to chickens. But then again, since you were being disingenuous, who on earth knows what you were talking about.So knowing that you were more interested in playing around than actually discussing anything, I asked a simple question.And look at the response! More derision, more game playing, more stuff and nonsense.

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At least, nobody but educated non-morons would ever misunderstand, right?

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Is there a point to all the invective or is this the only way you can comport yourself?Perhaps it fills a need. Is there a reason you spend so much time on this?------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

crashfrog responds to me:

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You see, "niggardly" has only one meaning.

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Does it? That appears to be the question. I'd say it has two meanings - the dictionary definition of "miserly", and a definition most people seem to ascribe to it that has racist connotations.

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And I would say that it has one meaning but that a lot of people who don't know the word hear it as a completely different word.That is, the speaker said "niggardly" while the listener heard "niggerly."Personally, "I didn't say that" trumps anybody's claims of meaning.Remember those Sprint commercials where the person on one end of the cell phone says one thing while the person on the other end hears something completely different (personally, I love the Dachshund one..."Stampede!" and all the little dogs dash across the screen)? Notice that nobody, not even the viewer of the commercial, blames the person who said what was misheard for making an error.Why? Because the person speaking is blameless. They said what they said, meant what they said, and when you look at what they said, there is no way it could be interpreted to mean what was heard.It's the same thing. The person said something, meant what he said, and when you look at what was said, there is no way it cold be interpreted to mean what was heard.So we're left with the result that the people misheard.

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As usage is the final arbiter of language, it must have those two definitions, as both of those definitions are in use.

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But there's a problem: You're looking at the people who are hearing the word, not the people who are using it. The people who are using it seem to use it in only one way.So who should we pay attention to in this situation? The people who use the word or the people who only hear the word and never use it themselves?------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!