I mentioned this Percy, and as the purpose of this forum is debate then I'm not following the rules unless I'm willing be challenged and defend my position. I've needed a bit of a cool-off period. My apologies for getting emotional at times. Believe it or not, I did well with competitive speech-making in high school. The problem is that they never gave me any formal training, no lessons in logic, nothing. Maybe I got good at persuading people using anecdote as well as a sprinkling here and there of some quotes and information from prestigious sources. I'm trying to re-learn how to go about doing things while I'm here.
Having said that, I find myself in an odd position. I am refuting creationist arguments on another website. Here I am making myself look like an ass because I have views that are not always supported by the clinical study evidence required here, and indeed which are often in opposition to it. All I can say is that I'll give evidence where I can, and I'll explain where I can, though what I confess I'm working from is what I feel deep down is right. That's not at all logically defensible, I'm aware, and if people used that excuse then they could justify believing in everything from UFOs to the end of the world tomorrow. However, I have built my views on many things I've heard and read about and I don't tend to file them away for the purposes of debate. I'll see what I can find now to give what I've said some support.
Firstly, when I said a person is well protected against disease if they are healthy, what I meant was that they are less likely to suffer ill effects from the diease, not that they are any less likely to have the virus in their body. So I'm not in disagreement with anything you said about that. I'm glad you agree that good health enables a person to fight a virus off more successfully. There's plenty of evidence that disease is so widespread in developing countries because of poverty, resulting in poor nutrition and living conditions. My position there is that vaccinations are best until those countries can be assisted to improve the standard of living of their citizens.
In wealthy developed countries, this is a hazier issue in my opinion. Well-nourished children are not going to be so prone to the worst effects of diseases, especially if they are taking large amounts of vitamin C. I know that my daughter is in excellent nutritional health. The risk is small that if she does contract a disease like measles or mumps, she will suffer disabling effects from them. I do understand that the risk is not zero. However, as I have said, the risk of vaccination is not zero either.
To date no studies have been performed to compare human populations vaccinated and populations unvaccinated. No one can claim that we know for sure that vaccines are safe. The number that children receive has mushroomed in the past two decades. In 1985 children were vaccinated for 7 diseases. Now it's 16, for which they receive 37 separate vaccination encounters. Vaccines, as I'm sure you are aware, do not just consist of inactivated viruses. They contain substances like ethylene glycol (antifreeze), phenol/carbolic acid, formaldehyde, aluminum, neomycin, streptomycin, and thimerosal. Of these, thimerosal has received the most attention because it consists mostly of ethyl mercury. Thimerosal was withdrawn from many pediatric vaccines in 1999 as a result of concerns over the neurodevelopmental toxicity of organic mercury, although it is still used in influenza, diptheria, and pertussis vaccinations.
No studies have been done on the safety of injecting these compounds directly into the bloodstream, though there is growing evidence of the harm that mercury can cause. Why inject such a poison into a person? (For that matter, why put it in someone's teeth?) Babies who are only a few days old are being injected with these substances.
I am also concerned about the way the vaccine cultures are developed. They are grown and strained through animal or human tissue; for example monkey kidney tissue, chicken embryo, embryonic guinea pig cells, calf serum, and human diploid cells (the dissected organs of aborted foetuses, as in the rubella vaccine). The problem with animal cells is that during serial passage of the virus through them, the animal RNA and DNA can be transferred from one host to another and undetected animal viruses may slip past quality control testing procedures. This happened in 1955-61 with SV40 (simian virus #40) which has carcinogenic properties. All three types of Sabin's live polio virus vaccine were contaminated, though the "killed" vaccines were contaminated as well. The virus has also been found in subsequent generations, suggesting that it has been passed down from parent to child. You can read more about this
here.
Some vaccines have used bovine-derived materials from the USDA's BSE list. A polio vaccine was recalled in the UK in 2000 over concerns about BSE.
There is also an issue about the effect vaccines have on the immune system. Injecting a virus, alive or dead, bypasses the natural lines of defense in the body. There has been speculation that vaccines could cause autoimmune diseases. Gulf War Syndrome could fall into this category.
This article gives a more detailed explanation.
Contracting a disease often gives lifelong immunity. If we hadn't started vaccinating for rubella, then young women would not have to worry about it during pregnancy because the vast majority will have already been exposed to the virus and will have immunity. However, the rubella vaccine does not give this lifelong immunity. Arguably, the natural immunity conferred from the contraction of the virus is better than the uncertain immunity given by a vaccine. It's not hard to find cases where people immunized with any given vaccine, ended up contracting a virus they had been vaccinated against.
I repeat that these viruses are, on the whole, not as dangerous as we are told to believe. Certainly not to people who are in good health. You said:
Measles is not usually dangerous, but it is so highly contagious that in an unvaccinated society it would sweep through in epidemics, disabling the economy and seriously compromising public safety.
Was every nation on earth disabled by measles outbreaks until the vaccine was introduced? No. Are the Amish devastated by it now? No.
You mentioned chicken pox. The vast majority of people have been exposed to it by the time they are adults -- or would have been, before vaccinations. To my knowledge I have never had it, and I am 35. I have been in close contact with people who have had it, including my sister and my daughter. it's possible that I had such a mild case of it at some point that symptoms never surfaced. Do I want to be vaccinated? Given the sorts of concerns about vaccines that I have raised here, no. I eat a healthy diet and take my vitamin C megadoses. If I did contract chicken pox, I'm quite prepared to ride it out.
You mentioned diptheria. There are many different forms of non-toxin-producing, interrelated, relatively harmless "diphtheroids" that live with lots of other so-called disease-causing bacteria in our throats, on our skin, or in the environment, as you can read about
here. It is environmental factors which are mostly to blame for cases of diptheria.
"The eradication of diphtheria will not come through the serum treatment of patients, by the immunization of the well, or through the accurate clinical and laboratory diagnosis of the case and the carrier followed by quarantine; rather it will be attained through the mass sanitary protection of the populace subconsciously practised by the people at all times." (JAMA, 1922, p. 682.)
You might also be interested in reading
this extract from a 1912 book titled Leicester: Sanitation verses Vaccination. Close to home for me. It starts by describing "The Inoculation Mania."
That's a summary of my case Percy. It's why I believe that there's more danger for my daughter in being vaccinated than there is in her potentially catching something like measles or mumps. She's already received most of her vaccinations and I regret this; but at least I am informed about vaccinations now and can make good decisions for us both in the future.
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