Sequel Thread To Holistic Doctors, and medicine

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But I'm never going to look at things 100% in a scientific way. There are times for that, and other times when it is perhaps more of a hinderance than a help.

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When dealing with natural phenomena, when is the scientific method of inquiry a hinderance, exactly? Using it is the only way we have ever learned anything reliable about the natural world. Using our hunch or the testimony of other people or believing what we simply want to be true while ignoring or discounting contradictory evidence is proven to be a very, very unreliable way to discover anything about the natural world. You have, over and over and over, suggested that sometimes, going with the less reliable method is better.Well, when is it better? Give us examples. Show us the usefulness of this methodology and how it has benefitted inquiry.The following is so appropriate for this discussion and what we have been trying to get across to you that I thought I'd post it here: Edited by Admin, : Fix image width.

As a response, here are som Feynman quotes for you.

LindaLou, do you think that the nonscientific approach to making claims about reality that Creationists use is sometimes the best way to determine something reliable about the natural world?

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If I were to decide to think like this, it would mean putting my trust in mainstream doctors again.

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What you are falling into the trap of, LL, is the "team mentality". You think it is an all-or-nothing equation, which is isn't.What you have been asked over and over again to address and what you have failed to do so as many times is the following;Let us for the sake of discussion accept that mainstream medicine has all the flaws and nefarious, evil motives you say it does, right down to the not-for-profit physicians of Doctors Without Borders.How does this lamentable situation make unscientific, untested medical practices any more valid?You are making exactly the same argument as the Creationist who says that Evolution is false, therefore Genesis must be true.You know that is a false dichotomy. You see it with the Creationists, but you are blind to it in your own dearly held beliefs.

Remember the story I told you about my mother in law who is suffering from Altzheimer's and Bipolar Disorder? Remember how she waspsychotic and violent before diagnosis and going on medications, and now that she is on that evil, allopathic medication she is pretty much back to being her old loving, funny, happy self? You never replied the first time I posted it.My anecdote is different from yours. Now what?

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Now let's look at the claim that most drugs are safe and effective.

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That is misleading.All drugs, including "natural" or herbal drugs with known effects, are on a sliding scale of effectiveness and safety depending upon the individual and a host of other complicating circumstances. All drugs are a tradeoff, since all drugs powerful enough to have a positive effect are powerful tenough to have a negative effect as well. That's what those inserts that come with your prescriptions (and are conspicuously absent from most herbal drugs) very explicitly state.

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This is by no means supported by the same kind of incontrovertible evidence.

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Since nobody is claiming such a simplistic thing, one wouldn't expect to find evidence for it.

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It assumes that the germ theory of disease and everything else we think we know about the human body is correct.

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Why wouldn't we accept this as correct to the best of our current scientific knowledge?

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That drugs are usually the best way to treat a condition.

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I don't know where you get this idea that all medical doctors think this. I have never had a doctor that acted like this.Just becasue you had a bad experience and you ONLY speak with others who have had similar experiences doesn't mean that most people have doctors like yours.Again, even if most people DID have doctors like yours, it STILL doesn't mean that anecdote is better than the scientific method at figuring out natural phenomena.

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That if we look hard enough, we can produce better and better drugs that target specific symptoms.

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This has been demonstrated to be the case over time, for some conditions. Of course, not without side effects, which are documented in that package insert.

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That the studies carried out on the drugs are by and large unbiased, fair, and accurate.

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Again, you call into question the integrity of thousands of scientists.Again, you ignore the fact that if scientists can be biased, unfair, and inaccurate, so can promoters of alternative medicine. Furthermore, you continue to ignore the fact that peer review and the scientific method itself is designed to correct for inaccuracy, bias, and unfairness, whereas there is nothing in place to correct for such problems that are surely also present in the promoters of alternative medicine.

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And that no other method of treatment is going to be better because no other method of treatment is as tried and tested.

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The more accurate thing to say is that we don't know if the other treatments are better, worse, about the same, or ineffective unless they are tested.Again, you assign nefarious motives to the entirety of one group, yet do not even consider that those same motives might be present in the group you personally identify with.

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I would try a diet and vitamins approach first.

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Why make her suffer with so much anxiety when the drugs she was prescibed worked so incredibly well?She has Altzheimer's, LindaLou. Her brain is deteriorating. Rapidly.Eating broccoli and taking Vitamin C would do fuck all to help her.

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It means that people who have failed to find help in the allopathic system must find that help elsewhere, even if it means putting faith in a less-tested system.

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Untested, you mean.What you have done, LL, is to throw the baby out with the bathwater.You say that you don't think traditional western medicine is all bad, but you make it clear that you mistrust all scientific results, all doctors who prescribe meds, etc.Instead of using your bullshit detector on alt med like you do for Creationism, you have simply swallowed pretty much everything that your ND has told you. What tests has your ND run on you to determine what has been damaged? You say your adrenal function is abnormal, but how do you know that? Blood tests?Sometimes, bad shit happens and there's nothing anybody can do. Turning to untested, unreliable methods out of desperation is undrestandable, but it still means that the methods aren't reliable and are likely to be wrong.

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How many of them are willing to consider any idea at all that deviates from the mainstream?

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Scientists are made famous by deviating from the mainstream. Einstein comes to mind as a good example. Darwin is another.

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This kind of system makes it extremely difficult for new ideas or innovations to take hold.

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Yes, and this is as it should be.New ideas must be thoroughly put through the wringer of critical review and replication to see if they hold up before they are granted provisional acceptance in the greater scientific community.This has proved to be the best way we know to avoid making mistakes, since mistakes, especially in the medical field, can be costly.Edited by nator, : No reason given.

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Mental illness is a symptom of an underlying problem.

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That is true, but it is also incredibly vague.

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If the problem can be corrected before too much damage has been done, health will return.

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Sure.

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Drugs treat symptoms not root causes of illness.

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(like your herbal drugs, right?)And drugs alone are not typically the preferred treatment for mental illness. Talk therapy is always a preferred component. Usually, it is the patient which refuses the talk therapy and goes with the drugs-alone approach.

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This is why I personally would choose to pursue some kind of nutritional therapy before I resorted to drugs.

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Do you have any evidence to suggest that nutritional therapy is effective in elderly people with rapid-onset Altzheimers and severe Bipolar disorder?