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Author
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Topic: Sequel Thread To Holistic Doctors, and medicine
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2671 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: 06-06-2007
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Message 186 of 307 (426322)
10-06-2007 3:01 AM
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Reply to: Message 183 by Kitsune
10-06-2007 2:45 AM
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The Death of a Child
You know, Lindalou, I looked into this a little bit more and I think Dr. Rath might be right up your alley. Matthias Rath - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com
Rath claims his vitamin therapy can even cure cancer. But after one of his patients died, he was ordered by a Berlin court to stop advertising such claims in Germany or face a fine of 250,000. The court ruling centered on the death of a nine-year-old boy, Dominik Feld, who died after being taken off conventional cancer treatment and put on Rath's vitamin treatment. The boy's mother supports Rath and denies her son even had cancer. She blames conventional medicine and the drug industry for her son's death. Rather than accept their son's tragic fate, she and her husband turned to Rath's unconventional therapy for young Dominik. "In November 2003, Germany's social services obtained a court order to remove the boy from his parents' custody on the grounds that they were not acting in his best interests." Rath gives his version of the story on his website. According to him, his medicine works and those who say otherwise are dupes of the pharmaceutical industry.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 183 by Kitsune, posted 10-06-2007 2:45 AM | | Kitsune has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 188 by Kitsune, posted 10-06-2007 4:08 AM | | molbiogirl has replied |
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2671 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: 06-06-2007
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Message 206 of 307 (426379)
10-06-2007 12:38 PM
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Reply to: Message 190 by Kitsune
10-06-2007 5:11 AM
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Re: Dr. Rath
Indeed it should be. This is something called the Pauling and Rath theory. You can read about it here. Citations are at the bottom. The cites, with the exception of 3, are quack "journals". The 3 that were published in reputable journals have nothing to do with "heart scurvy".
What you might be more interested in, is the contemporary opinions of some doctors regarding heart disease. The old model isn't accepted by everyone. Have a look here and you can see what some doctors and scientists are saying to each other about this. There's a big difference between researching the relationship between cholesterol and heart disease and "heart scurvy". One has nothing to do with the other.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 190 by Kitsune, posted 10-06-2007 5:11 AM | | Kitsune has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 209 by Kitsune, posted 10-06-2007 1:13 PM | | molbiogirl has replied |
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2671 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: 06-06-2007
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Message 207 of 307 (426382)
10-06-2007 12:44 PM
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Reply to: Message 188 by Kitsune
10-06-2007 4:08 AM
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Re: The Death of a Child
Interesting. You tell me not to use anecdotes, yet you are giving one yourself. No. Dominik Feld's cancer was a documented fact. News: Breaking stories & updates - The Telegraph
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 188 by Kitsune, posted 10-06-2007 4:08 AM | | Kitsune has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 208 by Kitsune, posted 10-06-2007 12:52 PM | | molbiogirl has replied |
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2671 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: 06-06-2007
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Message 211 of 307 (426393)
10-06-2007 1:26 PM
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Reply to: Message 202 by Kitsune
10-06-2007 8:52 AM
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Fair Clinical Studies
However I do not think it's likely we'll be seeing many more vitamin or herb clinical studies until the pharmaceuticals' influence is largely removed and clinical trials are done by independent organizations. BigPharma has BigReasons to extensively test ANY drug that shows promise. Ginko biloba is a case in point. There have been 139 studies published in 2007. Don't you get it? There's an enormous financial incentive to test! Hell's bells, there's a journal called Natural Product Reports. Natural products to drugs: natural product derived compounds in clinical trials, Nat. Prod. Rep., 2005, 22, 162-195. A partial list of naturally derived drugs: 1998 orlistat (Xenical®) 1998 cefoselis (Wincef®) 1999 dalfopristin and quinupristin (Synercid®) 1999 valrubicin (Valstar®) 1999 colforsin daropate (Adele, Adehl®) 2000 arteether (Artemotil®) 2001 ertapenem (Invanz) 2001 caspofungin (Cancidas®) 2001 telithromycin (Ketek®) 2001 pimecrolimus (Elidel®) 2002 galantamine (Reminyl®) 2002 micafungin (Funguard®) 2002 amrubicin hydrochloride (Calsed®) 2002 biapenem (Omegacin®) 2002 nitisinone (Orfadin®) 2003 miglustat (Zavesca®) 2003 mycophenolate sodium (Myfortic®) 2003 rosuvastatin (Crestor®) 2003 pitavastatin (Livalo®) 2003 daptomycin (Cubicin) 2004 everolimusd (Certican) The latest issue of Natural Product Reports is "Vitamins and Cofactors". It's only when extensive testing reveals a favorite "treatment" (e.g. megadose vitamin C) to be ineffective that you and your buddies get your panties in a bunch.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 202 by Kitsune, posted 10-06-2007 8:52 AM | | Kitsune has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 214 by Kitsune, posted 10-06-2007 1:42 PM | | molbiogirl has replied |
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2671 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: 06-06-2007
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Message 213 of 307 (426398)
10-06-2007 1:38 PM
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Reply to: Message 208 by Kitsune
10-06-2007 12:52 PM
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Re: The Death of a Child
The BMJ ran the story but had to retract it and issue an apology to Rath, saying that the allegations they'd published were without foundation. Lindalou, you really need to be more careful. BMJ did not retract the story of Dominik Feld's cancer (and his subsequent death). They retracted the story that Dr. Rath was sued for Dominik's death. And Dr. Rath is a loon for many reasons, chief among them his AIDS denial. Rath took out a full-page ad in the New York Times in which he refers to pharmaceutical firms as "the pharmaceutical drug cartel" and charged that this cartel promotes antiretroviral drugs "to maintain their global market with patented AIDS drugs." Despite the evidence that these drugs are effective, he claims that pharmaceutical firms know not only that they are ineffective but also that they are aimed at increasing the spread of AIDS.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 208 by Kitsune, posted 10-06-2007 12:52 PM | | Kitsune has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 215 by Kitsune, posted 10-06-2007 1:45 PM | | molbiogirl has not replied |
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2671 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: 06-06-2007
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Message 216 of 307 (426401)
10-06-2007 1:47 PM
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Reply to: Message 209 by Kitsune
10-06-2007 1:13 PM
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Dr. Pauling's Reputation
Pauling's reputation in vitamin C research had been destroyed by the Mayo Clinic, remember? Au contraire. Dr. Pauling's assertions spurred further research.
The Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine is not a quack journal, though it's clear you see it that way. wiki writes: Though repeated applications have been made, the Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine has not been indexed by MEDLINE, a canonical database of biomedical literature. Journals are selected for MEDLINE by the National Library of Medicine, which uses criteria including scope and coverage, quality of content, quality of editorial work, intended audience, quality of the layout, printing, graphics, and illustrations. Anyone can publish a journal, Lindalou. Subtle Energies & Energy Medicine is a "journal" fer chrissake. Domain Names, Web Hosting and Online Marketing Services | Network Solutions
Founded in 1989, The International Society for the Study of Subtle Energies and Energy Medicine (ISSSEEM) Studies systems and energies that interact with the human psyche and physiology, either enhancing or perturbing health. Interconnects persons who work with or conduct research about subtle energies and human consciousness. Encourages an exchange of information through conferences, seminars, and workshops. Informs and Interfaces with members and the broader scientific community through Bridges, a quarterly magazine, and Subtle Energies & Energy Medicine, a peer-reviewed, scientific journal. Cooperates with other organizations that have common interests and goals, enhancing the use of available resources. Um. Yeah. Right.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 209 by Kitsune, posted 10-06-2007 1:13 PM | | Kitsune has not replied |
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2671 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: 06-06-2007
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Message 217 of 307 (426403)
10-06-2007 1:51 PM
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Reply to: Message 214 by Kitsune
10-06-2007 1:42 PM
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Re: Fair Clinical Studies
Would you kindly tell me what the "vitamins and cofactors" story is about? I don't suppose there is a link to it, or a similar story? It's not a "story". The entire September 2007 issue is dedicated to vitamins and cofactors. And, as I pointed out earlier, since you haven't access to a University library, you would have to pay to read the journal. Should you wish to do so, here is the link: Natural Product Reports journal
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 214 by Kitsune, posted 10-06-2007 1:42 PM | | Kitsune has not replied |
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2671 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: 06-06-2007
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Message 219 of 307 (426407)
10-06-2007 2:05 PM
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Reply to: Message 218 by Percy
10-06-2007 1:54 PM
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Anecdotal "Links"
The anti-vaccination crowd is using the same kind of data and analysis you are: anecdotal. I'd like to add that it's the anecdotal "links" between autism and vaccinations that have caused the majority of the harm. Jenny McCarthy is on the cover of September's People magazine promoting this BS. She wrote a book too. Louder Than Words: A Mother's Journey in Healing Autism. Edited by molbiogirl, : sp
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 218 by Percy, posted 10-06-2007 1:54 PM | | Percy has not replied |
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2671 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: 06-06-2007
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Message 221 of 307 (426428)
10-06-2007 4:25 PM
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Reply to: Message 214 by Kitsune
10-06-2007 1:42 PM
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Re: Fair Clinical Studies
If those studies only used, say, a few hundred milligrams of vitamin C, then people have every right to object that the studies were flawed. Dr. Pauling's objection wasn't that the Mayo Clinic studies were "flawed"; it was to the studies' use of oral vitamin C. His objections were taken to heart by other researchers. Other studies were done/are being done. Phase 1 Trial of High-Dose Intravenous Vitamin C Treatment for Patients With Cancer JAOA ” Vol 107 ” No 6 ” June 2007 ” 212-213
For more than 30 years, the medical profession has had lingering questions about the efficacy of vitamin C in cancer therapy. Yet, few definitive clinical reports supporting this finding have been published. Thus, in October 2006, Cancer Treatment Centers of America (CTCA) initiated a US Food and Drug Administration-approved phase 1 study of intravenous vitamin C for patients with solid tumors who have exhausted all other available treatments. The investigators include an osteopathic internist (C.M.S.), a medical oncologist (R.D.L.), and a clinical epidemiologist (C.G.L.). Unfortunately, no evidence has come to light (yet) that supports Dr. Pauling's assertions. In fact, just the opposite. Orthomolecular oncology review: ascorbic acid and cancer 25 years later. Integr Cancer Ther. 2005 Mar;4(1):32-44.
AA (ascorbic acid) has been reported to enhance chemical carcinogenesis in a rodent model. 144-146 This action may be due to the pro-oxidant activity of AA and the subsequent enhancement of free radical formation by the chemical carcinogen 7,12-dimethylbenz[a]anthracene. In another study, AA in high concentrations was found to be an essential requirement for the growth of murine myeloma cells in cell culture. 147 144. Vitamin C enhances the development of carcinoma in the hamster buccal pouch experimental model. Oral Surg Oral Med Oral Pathol. 1993;76:718-722. 145. The effectiveness of a mixture of beta carotene, alpha tocopherol, glutathione and ascorbic acid for cancer prevention. Nutr Cancer. 1993;20:145-151. 146. Ascorbic acid and gastrointestinal cancer J Am Coll Nutr. 1995;14:565-578. 147. Vitamin C and leukemia and preleukemia cell growth. Prog Clin Biol Res. 1988;259:321-330. Also, as I'm sure you're aware, there can be a big difference between the natural form of the substance and the form which appears in the prescription medication. A big difference? How so? Sometimes a compound derived from a natural source is (intentionally) changed for medical purposes, sometimes it isn't.
The question there would be who decides that a particular substance shows promise, and how much money they think might be made out of it. You just won't let go of the Evil Scientist Worldwide Conspiracy®, will you? I am never going to get my ESWC® membership card by spilling the beans like this, but here goes nothing: BigPharma is on the prowl for ANYTHING & EVERYTHING that even remotely smells like $.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 214 by Kitsune, posted 10-06-2007 1:42 PM | | Kitsune has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 222 by Kitsune, posted 10-06-2007 5:33 PM | | molbiogirl has replied |
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2671 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: 06-06-2007
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Message 223 of 307 (426436)
10-06-2007 5:59 PM
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Reply to: Message 222 by Kitsune
10-06-2007 5:33 PM
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Re: Fair Clinical Studies
Condition: human full text studies only. I can't fairly comment on them if I can't see the full studies. In order to rebut your absurd claims, I need to reference the appropriate literature. It isn't my fault that you haven't access to the literature, Lindalou.
By the way, if you'd done me the service of at least reading the post in which I added some information from Pauling's book, you would have seen that there were more flaws in the Mayo Clinic studies than just the way vitamin C was administered. I read it the first time, Lindalou. The Mayo Clinic studies were not "flawed". A "flawed" study is one that is biased. I posted a list of the most common sources of bias, remember? In case you don't:
Internal validity: extent to which systematic error (bias) is minimised in clinical trials Selection bias: biased allocation to comparison groups Performance bias: unequal provision of care apart from treatment under evaluation Detection bias: biased assessment of outcome Attrition bias: biased occurrence and handling of deviations from protocol and loss to follow up External validity: extent to which results of trials provide a correct basis for generalisation to other circumstances Patients: age, sex, severity of disease and risk factors, comorbidity Treatment regimens: dosage, timing and route of administration, type of treatment within a class of treatments, concomitant treatments Settings: level of care (primary to tertiary) and experience and specialisation of care provider Modalities of outcomes: type or definition of outcomes and duration of follow up Using this as a guideline, one can see that Dr. Cameron's and Dr. Pauling's original paper was biased. (A paper that you have yet to read, right, Lindalou?)
Then why is it so difficult to believe that they might want to influence the outcome of studies involving blockbuster drugs that stand to earn them billions of $$$, or that they might want to suppress negative clinical trial results or adverse events if those might prevent the drugs from receiving FDA approval? I don't think this is paranoid or even cynical. It's how the world works. This is irrelevant to the question of whether or not BigPharma chases down "natural" drugs. --- A couple of questions. How do you suppose BigPharma suppresses negative clinical trials? Clinical trials are carried out by independent researchers. How do you suppose they influence the outcome of studies? The studies are done by independent researchers. You might have an argument re: the clinical trials/studies they do themselves, but you are suggesting that BigPharma has the ability to control tens of thousands of researchers worldwide. Worldwide, dear. Really, now.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 222 by Kitsune, posted 10-06-2007 5:33 PM | | Kitsune has not replied |
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2671 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: 06-06-2007
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Message 243 of 307 (426554)
10-07-2007 1:23 PM
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Reply to: Message 242 by Percy
10-07-2007 1:11 PM
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Re: FDA Approval
OTC drugs are FDA approved as well. Page Not Found | FDA
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 242 by Percy, posted 10-07-2007 1:11 PM | | Percy has not replied |
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2671 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: 06-06-2007
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Message 258 of 307 (427214)
10-10-2007 12:49 PM
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Reply to: Message 257 by JavaMan
10-10-2007 4:07 AM
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Re: Vitamins and Optical Isomerism
Note that I said 'a group of related compounds', not 'a mixture of related compounds'. You're right. I assumed you meant mixture.
If you'll take the trouble to look up the structures you'll find that, just as I stated in my previous email, most vitamins (Vitamin C is an exception) are ranges of similar organic compounds differing in carbon chain length or substitutions on an aromatic ring. Do you meant to say that vitamin A is "similar" to vitamin B or do you mean to say that there are substitutions on the vitamin A ring?
It's not that Vitamin E, for example, is a mixture of different compounds, but that several different compounds can be described as 'Vitamin E'. Comparison of supplementation of RRR-alpha-tocopherol and racemic alpha- tocopherol in humans. Effects on lipid levels and lipoprotein susceptibility to oxidation Arteriosclerosis and Thrombosis, Vol 13, 601-608
wiki writes: Synthetic vitamin E is now manufactured as all-racemic alpha tocopheryl acetate with three chiral centers, with only one alpha tocopherol molecule (moiety) in 8 molecules as actual R, R,R-alpha tocopherol. Vitamin A, Vitamin K, and a good number of the B vitamins aren't even optically active, so how can you have racemic mixtures of them? The Chemistry of Vitamin A and Vision Volume 29, Issue 5, Date: May 1990, Pages: 461-480
A racemic mixture of [(I 5Q3H]- and [(15R)-3H]-all-trans-retinol plus [I 5-14C]- all-trans-retinol was administered to either rats or frogs. Formation of hydroxyvitamin K by vitamin K epoxide reductase of warfarin-resistant rats J. Biol. Chem., Vol. 258, Issue 7, 4372-4380, Apr, 1983
Hydroxyvitamin K is formed from both enantiomers of racemic vitamin K epoxide with little stereoselectivity for the configuration of either the oxirane ring or the phytyl side chain. Underreporting of Dietary Supplements to Health-Care Providers Does Great Harm Mayo Clin Proc. 1999;74:531-532
All vitamin supplements are chemically factory-synthesized, except for vitamin B12, which is biosynthesized. Chemical synthesis produces racemic vitamins, of which only the 1-form is natural (meaning it is the form present in plants and the form that is fully vitamin-active in humans)
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 257 by JavaMan, posted 10-10-2007 4:07 AM | | JavaMan has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 259 by JavaMan, posted 10-10-2007 3:57 PM | | molbiogirl has replied |
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2671 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: 06-06-2007
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Message 260 of 307 (427257)
10-10-2007 5:06 PM
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Reply to: Message 259 by JavaMan
10-10-2007 3:57 PM
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Re: Vitamins and Optical Isomerism
'Vitamin A' describes one range of compounds; 'Vitamin E' describes another, quite different, range of compounds. That's just it. I know vitamin E is 8 different compounds (and is a racemic mixture) but I don't see how vitamin A is a range of compounds. Are you talking about beta-carotene v. retinol?
It's the introduction of a tritium molecule at position 15 that creates a chiral centre. My bad. I was in a hurry this morning. Here's vitamin B. Woodward’s Synthesis of Vitamin B Resonance June 2003
Vitamin B 12 is a large and complex molecule, containing 9 chiral centres (marked with an asterix), with 6 of the chiral centres linked together in a chain. Here's vitamin K. Food Chemistry Hans-Dieter Belitz 2004, Springer ISBN 3540408185
The K-group vitamins are napthoquinone derivatives which differ in their side chains. The structure of vitamin K1 is shown in formula 6.4. The configuration at carbons 7' and 11'is R and corresponds to the natural phytol. Racemic vitamin K is synthesized from optically inactive isophytol and has the same biological activity as the natural product.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 259 by JavaMan, posted 10-10-2007 3:57 PM | | JavaMan has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 261 by JavaMan, posted 10-11-2007 4:24 AM | | molbiogirl has replied |
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2671 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: 06-06-2007
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Message 266 of 307 (427425)
10-11-2007 12:11 PM
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Reply to: Message 261 by JavaMan
10-11-2007 4:24 AM
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Re: Vitamins and Optical Isomerism
Molbiogirl, can I give you some advice? We're just doing high school chemistry here. There's no need for literature searches. You could have cleared up your own misunderstandings just by looking up the chemical structures of vitamins, and you could have cleared up my mistake about the optical activity of Vitamin K just by pointing to the structure. Little secret, Java. I hate chirality. I hated it when I took Organic, I hate it now. I'm a biochemist, not a chemist. So if I have a question, I just look stuff up.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 261 by JavaMan, posted 10-11-2007 4:24 AM | | JavaMan has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 267 by JavaMan, posted 10-11-2007 12:14 PM | | molbiogirl has replied |
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2671 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: 06-06-2007
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Message 268 of 307 (427430)
10-11-2007 12:32 PM
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Reply to: Message 267 by JavaMan
10-11-2007 12:14 PM
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Re: Vitamins and Optical Isomerism
Yes, I guessed. Just teasing. Hells bells, man. It's like asking a biologist to do math. Srsly.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 267 by JavaMan, posted 10-11-2007 12:14 PM | | JavaMan has not replied |
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