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Author Topic:   General Discussion Of Moderation Procedures 13.0
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 91 of 312 (425689)
10-03-2007 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by iano
10-03-2007 6:10 PM


Re: Clarification on Jar
you are aware of the title of this thread?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by iano, posted 10-03-2007 6:10 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by iano, posted 10-03-2007 7:14 PM macaroniandcheese has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 92 of 312 (425691)
10-03-2007 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by macaroniandcheese
10-03-2007 7:10 PM


Re: Clarification on Jar
Read my post count
On-topic-R'nt-Us

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Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 93 of 312 (425856)
10-04-2007 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Stile
10-03-2007 10:23 AM


Re: Higher Debating Standard
Hi,
How can this: "And, like any board, violate the clearly spelled out rules and you get banned. Temporarily or indefinitely depending on the severity."
harmonise with this? "Evo's are held to a higher debating standard than Creo's."
Why are evos held to a higher standard, for what reason?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Stile, posted 10-03-2007 10:23 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Shtop, posted 10-04-2007 9:27 AM Brian has replied
 Message 95 by Stile, posted 10-04-2007 10:11 AM Brian has replied

Shtop
Junior Member (Idle past 2325 days)
Posts: 30
Joined: 07-19-2007


Message 94 of 312 (425857)
10-04-2007 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Brian
10-04-2007 9:19 AM


Re: Higher Debating Standard
Why are evos held to a higher standard, for what reason?
Because otherwise we would very rapidly run out of Creo's, and this would become a very quiet place. We need to cherish and protect our Creo's.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Brian, posted 10-04-2007 9:19 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
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Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 95 of 312 (425863)
10-04-2007 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Brian
10-04-2007 9:19 AM


Re: Higher Debating Standard
Brian writes:
Why are evos held to a higher standard, for what reason?
You answered that question yourself, in your last message:
Brian writes:
If there was even handed moderation there would probably be about 2 theists here.
How can this: "And, like any board, violate the clearly spelled out rules and you get banned. Temporarily or indefinitely depending on the severity."
harmonise with this? "Evo's are held to a higher debating standard than Creo's."
I don't understand the confusion. How do they not harmonize? There is no mention of equality. The clearly spelled out rule is biased, and there is enforcement of that biased rule.
I would, however, like to amend my use of Evo and Creo to "those who know how to debate" and "those who are unfamiliar with the polite rules of debate". Since there are Evo's and Creo's on both sides (although it does tend to lean in the direction of Jar's recent statements).
The clearly spelled out rule is "Those who have the education and knowledge to debate are held to a higher standard than those who do not understand how to discuss with civility and tact." It clearly indicates that different people are going to be held to different standards in order to promote overall discussion. Or, as you pointed out in your last post, this place will soon have no people to discuss with.
It is ironic to point out that Jar's entire point, his main idea is exactly what this forum does already. This forum already "allows those who have no other recourse to use personal attacks and incredulity as their only defense". It just doesn't spell it out in such a demeaning and in-your-face way as Jar has been repeating so abundantly as of late. And, since Jar is one of those who understands how debate should be done, and how discussion should be promoted and developed... when he starts posting the things he's been doing he should be held to those higher standards. It's funny how he's been suspended by the very idea he's been promoting, and how that idea has already been incorporated into how EvC is ran.
There are boards where the strict rules of debate are held equally over everyone. Or boards where the moderators toss out whoever they want whenever they want. There doesn't seem to be much talk between Evo's and Creo's in such places.
This board attempts to promote such discussion. The primary goal of this board is not "a place where everyone must follow strict debating rules" the primary goal is "to develop talks between Evos and Creos" (to put it generally). Personally, I think it's doing the best job on the internet in that respect. It may even be the only place attempting such a goal. Sure, it slips up on minor issues sometimes (I agree that the length of Jar's suspension may have been a bit long). But it gets the major things pretty much bang-on. That is, the major things that inhibit this boards primary goal of promoting discussion, not "treating everyone with strict equality". Lee-way is given to those who need it in order to promote discussion. Harsher guidelines are imposed on those who should be able to promote discussion, but choose not to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Brian, posted 10-04-2007 9:19 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Brian, posted 10-04-2007 12:35 PM Stile has replied
 Message 98 by petrophysics1, posted 10-04-2007 12:36 PM Stile has replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 96 of 312 (425881)
10-04-2007 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Shtop
10-04-2007 9:27 AM


Re: Higher Debating Standard
This is basically what jar was banned for saying.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Shtop, posted 10-04-2007 9:27 AM Shtop has not replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 97 of 312 (425884)
10-04-2007 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Stile
10-04-2007 10:11 AM


Re: Higher Debating Standard
I don't understand the confusion. How do they not harmonize? There is no mention of equality. The clearly spelled out rule is biased, and there is enforcement of that biased rule.
So why do we have inequality. Creos and evos here are all adults, and the rules of the board do not state that the rules are biased. What you are stating is that ther eis one rule for creos and one for evos.
"Those who have the education and knowledge to debate are held to a higher standard than those who do not understand how to discuss with civility and tact."
But this is on no way implied in the forum rules.
Maybe Percy needs to have 2 sets of rules.
It is ironic to point out .....
Which is exactly what I was leading up to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Stile, posted 10-04-2007 10:11 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
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petrophysics1
Inactive Member


Message 98 of 312 (425888)
10-04-2007 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Stile
10-04-2007 10:11 AM


Re: Higher Debating Standard
So we could sum up the moderation on this board as: from each according to his ability, to each according to his need. Sounds familiar somehow.
I don't think there should be special treatment. The world is filled with billions of people who believe in God and don't act insane or possessed. Perhaps more of them would show up here if you didn't coddle the nuts. That might also give people a more rational and balanced look at "believers" in general.
Why cater to the lunatic fringe?
Edited by petrophysics, : typo

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 Message 95 by Stile, posted 10-04-2007 10:11 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Admin, posted 10-04-2007 12:46 PM petrophysics1 has not replied
 Message 100 by NosyNed, posted 10-04-2007 12:49 PM petrophysics1 has not replied
 Message 104 by Stile, posted 10-04-2007 1:28 PM petrophysics1 has not replied

Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 99 of 312 (425891)
10-04-2007 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by petrophysics1
10-04-2007 12:36 PM


Re: Higher Debating Standard
petrophysics writes:
I don't think there should be special treatment. The world is filled with billions of people who believe in God and don't act insane or possessed. Perhaps more of them would show up here if you didn't coddle the nuts. That might also give people a more rational and balanced look at "believers" in general.
Why cater to the lunatic fringe?
I have many times posed the same question to the creationist moderators. Evolutionists firmly rebut their nuttier elements (e.g., Hoot Mon), but creationists seem to allow their nuttier elements free rein. Why aren't more creationists challenging Ray Martinez and IamJoseph and CTD and Vashgun and so forth saying something like, "Hey, dude, you don't speak for all Christians, and I don't agree with the views you're expressing or the way you're expressing them. You're making Christianity look bad."

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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 Message 98 by petrophysics1, posted 10-04-2007 12:36 PM petrophysics1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 100 of 312 (425894)
10-04-2007 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by petrophysics1
10-04-2007 12:36 PM


The lunatic fringe
Why cater to the lunatic fringe?
But this isn't a site to discuss philosophical or religious beliefs. It is explicitly to discuss what is usually called "creation science".
If you think you can find any YECers who are not lunatic fringe please show where they have posted anything anywhere on the web. That goes for many kinds of OECers too but there is a blend in beliefs and fringyness until you get to your billions who don't act insane or possessed. For those willing to argue against the evidence that exists you have to turn to the loonies.
If you disagree -- again please find one. You'd think that by now some of them would have stumbled over EvC and be posting here wouldn't you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by petrophysics1, posted 10-04-2007 12:36 PM petrophysics1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 101 of 312 (425895)
10-04-2007 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by NosyNed
10-04-2007 12:49 PM


Re: The lunatic fringe
But we do have theology areas here, it isn't exclusively science here is it?

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 Message 100 by NosyNed, posted 10-04-2007 12:49 PM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 102 of 312 (425902)
10-04-2007 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Brian
10-04-2007 12:35 PM


Re: Higher Debating Standard
What you are stating is that there is one rule for creos and one for evos.
The wording you have used can easily be manipulated to mean something other than the idea proposed. I agree, but would more clearly state: "There is one rule for those who know better, and one rule for those who do not".
But this is on no way implied in the forum rules.
I agree. I also find this irrelevent.
The very first forum rule is "Follow all moderator requests." Are you saying you've never read Admin or Adminimooseus or any of the others say "Those who know better are held to a higher standard"?
As I stated in my first response:
Stile writes:
It's been repeated many times, even by Percy, that Evo's are held to "a much higher debating standard" than Creo's. I would be very surprised if you or anyone else posting in this thread was unaware.
It may not be in the formal forum guidelines. But anyone with more than a superficial cursory glance at these forums is well aware of this clearly spelled out policy.
Brian writes:
Maybe Percy needs to have 2 sets of rules.
But... there are two sets of rules already. One set for those who know better, and another for those who don't. This is in place specifically to help those-who-don't-know to learn. Those who know better already don't need it specified. And those who need to learn would only find it condescending and therefore it would only hinder helping them to learn. Posting such a rule in the formal forum guidelines is obviously redundant and counter-productive to the goal of promoting discussion.
So why do we have inequality.
Because equality is counter-productive to the goal of promoting the kind of discussion EvC is inclined to foster.
If you want equality, there are plenty of message boards that enforce such strict, unbiased rules. Of course, you may have also noticed that the EvC debate on such boards is rather... stifled, to say the least.

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 Message 97 by Brian, posted 10-04-2007 12:35 PM Brian has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 103 of 312 (425904)
10-04-2007 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Brian
10-04-2007 12:35 PM


Re: Higher Debating Standard
Brian writes:
Creos and evos here are all adults....
I don't think that's true at all, intellectually. If they were intellectually mature, there wouldn't be any creos.
We don't put children in jail for messing up the sandbox. On the same principle, we don't punish intellectual children for messing up threads.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
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Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Brian, posted 10-04-2007 12:35 PM Brian has not replied

Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 104 of 312 (425906)
10-04-2007 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by petrophysics1
10-04-2007 12:36 PM


Re: Higher Debating Standard
So we could sum up the moderation on this board as: from each according to his ability, to each according to his need. Sounds familiar somehow.
I am horrible with history I'm afraid whatever slur you're attempting here has gone straight over my head.
The world is filled with billions of people who believe in God and don't act insane or possessed. Perhaps more of them would show up here if you didn't coddle the nuts. That might also give people a more rational and balanced look at "believers" in general.
Of course. But no one wants to talk to the people who don't act insane or possessed. Everyone is aware of rational and balanced believers and no one has any arguement or debate with them.
What people do want to talk about is why some believe Noah's Flood is a part of reality. They want to talk about why some believe their way of life is the "known" best way, the only way, and everyone else should be exactly like them.
These people are the "lunatic fringe", as you've dubbed them. And, in order to promote discussion with them, we need an environment catered to their needs. EvC offers such an environment. Equality and enforcing unbiased forum rules is in diametric opposition to such an environment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by petrophysics1, posted 10-04-2007 12:36 PM petrophysics1 has not replied

Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 105 of 312 (425909)
10-04-2007 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Brian
10-04-2007 12:54 PM


Re: The lunatic fringe
Its not exclusively science because a lot of the creationists can't stick to science (Rob and Faith would be prime examples although Faith did try). At least with a separate forum the wholly off topic theology discussions can be taken out of the science forums, in theory anyway.
TTFN,
WK

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