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Author Topic:   What's the problem with teaching ID?
anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 46 of 337 (424290)
09-26-2007 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by pbee
09-26-2007 12:41 PM


Re: I have no problem with teaching ID in a school but...
pbee writes:
Science has nothing but convoluted theories and dead ends.
Pinin' for the plague are we?
Why are you using a computer to be on the internet then? Obviously both, along with the electric grid are a result of using science. Doesn't that make you a hypocrite?

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon
The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by pbee, posted 09-26-2007 12:41 PM pbee has not replied

Replies to this message:
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pbee
Member (Idle past 6027 days)
Posts: 339
Joined: 06-20-2007


Message 47 of 337 (424291)
09-26-2007 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by ringo
09-26-2007 1:03 PM


quote:
That says it all right there, doesn't it? Let's throw science out with the bath water.
The topic is about teaching ID in science class. If you're going to dismiss science as "convoluted theories and dead ends", what's the point of teaching science at all?
This was in reference to deciphering the origin of life and not science as a whole.
When it comes to evaluating the origins of life, science has nothing logical to offer. Those who choose to put their own faith and beleifs into a theory that life somehow originated from nothing are delusional. We have zero evidence to support the concept that life could originate from nothing and despite our greatest efforts, we have yet to produce anything better than Creation to satisfy the questions of existence.
If anything, the general scientific mindset casts limitations to the honest and open evaluation of life and origin. Why?.... fear!
Edited by pbee, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by ringo, posted 09-26-2007 1:03 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Taz, posted 09-26-2007 1:22 PM pbee has replied
 Message 52 by ringo, posted 09-26-2007 1:26 PM pbee has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 48 of 337 (424292)
09-26-2007 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by anglagard
09-26-2007 1:15 PM


Re: I have no problem with teaching ID in a school but...
anglagard writes:
Doesn't that make you a hypocrite?
There's nothing wrong with being a hypocrite in the face of debate. You know this.

Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

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 Message 46 by anglagard, posted 09-26-2007 1:15 PM anglagard has not replied

  
pbee
Member (Idle past 6027 days)
Posts: 339
Joined: 06-20-2007


Message 49 of 337 (424294)
09-26-2007 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Dr Adequate
09-26-2007 1:14 PM


None of the original materials(recordings) were proprietary to a religion or sect at that time. They were Authored by God and written by people without religious branding(despite what the Vatican says)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-26-2007 1:14 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

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Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 50 of 337 (424295)
09-26-2007 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by pbee
09-26-2007 1:16 PM


pbee writes:
We have zero evidence evidence to support the concept that life could originate from nothing.
Strawman.
Despite our greatest efforts, we have yet to produce anything better than Creation to satisfy the answer to our existence.
Your point?
If anything, the general scientific mindset harbors serious limitations to the honest and open evaluation of life and origin. Why? fear!
Mind to elaborate this a little more? If I understand this statement correctly, I would argue that the other way around is true. The wistful thinking that a heavenly father created us and a heaven for us to reside in after our ultimate demise comes directly from fear... fear of the unknown. How does trying to explore possibilities of a natural and humble beginning for life come from fear?

Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by pbee, posted 09-26-2007 1:16 PM pbee has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by pbee, posted 09-26-2007 1:26 PM Taz has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 51 of 337 (424296)
09-26-2007 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by pbee
09-26-2007 1:21 PM


pbee writes:
None of the original materials(recordings) were proprietary to a religion or sect at that time. They were Authored by God and written by people without religious branding(despite what the Vatican says)
And you know this how? Considering the fact that the so-called "original materials" vary greatly from each other. You might want to start reading the various creation myths from more than just your own culture.

Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by pbee, posted 09-26-2007 1:21 PM pbee has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 52 of 337 (424298)
09-26-2007 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by pbee
09-26-2007 1:16 PM


pbee writes:
This was in reference to deciphering the origin of life and not science as a whole.
So what? You can't just cherry-pick the bits of science you like and throw out what you don't like. It's all interrelated. if you throw out the science of origins, you're throwing out all of it.
When it comes to evaluating the origins of life, science has nothing logical to offer.
You're welcome to bring that opinion to the science forums and back it up with facts.
If anything, the general scientific mindset harbors serious limitations to the honest and open evaluation of life and origin.
And there y'go, betraying your general disdain for science.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by pbee, posted 09-26-2007 1:16 PM pbee has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by pbee, posted 09-26-2007 1:50 PM ringo has replied

  
pbee
Member (Idle past 6027 days)
Posts: 339
Joined: 06-20-2007


Message 53 of 337 (424299)
09-26-2007 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Taz
09-26-2007 1:22 PM


quote:
Mind to elaborate this a little more? If I understand this statement correctly, I would argue that the other way around is true. The wistful thinking that a heavenly father created us and a heaven for us to reside in after our ultimate demise comes directly from fear... fear of the unknown. How does trying to explore possibilities of a natural and humble beginning for life come from fear?
Well that's understandable. First of all, heaven was not designed for humans. Secondly, a God of fear was never the intent. Looks to me like you've obtained your education from acclaimed religious enterprises.
While I am not knocking the possibilities of ascension from physical to spiritual, we have no mention or reason to conclude this was part of the plan.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Taz, posted 09-26-2007 1:22 PM Taz has not replied

  
pbee
Member (Idle past 6027 days)
Posts: 339
Joined: 06-20-2007


Message 54 of 337 (424306)
09-26-2007 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by ringo
09-26-2007 1:26 PM


quote:
So what? You can't just cherry-pick the bits of science you like and throw out what you don't like. It's all interrelated. if you throw out the science of origins, you're throwing out all of it.
Really? you mean the science police will come and arrest me for selecting logical theories over the illogical ones? As a free spirited being, I will independently evaluate and conclude what is, and is not, acceptable where science and beliefs are concerned. Might I add that only mindless fools would live otherwise(but they do exist nonetheless). Proof that human beings can make a religion out of just about anything.
quote:
You're welcome to bring that opinion to the science forums and back it up with facts.
We have nothing. There is no sense dumping the obvious on people only to watch them scramble as they come up with convoluted reasoning to justify their beliefs. The simple truth is, "we have nothing". Anyone claiming to have the answers is either, full of shit or lacks the capacity to distinguish between reality and fantasy. Either way, the resulting conditions are the same.
quote:
And there y'go, betraying your general disdain for science.
Is this even worth addressing? "Science is not perfect" this isn't new. The sooner people can accept that, the sooner we can take things to the next level. For the most part, people who run in fear of the concept of creation are close minded. However, science is already well on it's way to discovering the existence of alternate realms(oops). Just don't mention realms and alien lifeforms on the same report to the SAB though.
Edited by pbee, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by ringo, posted 09-26-2007 1:26 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by ringo, posted 09-26-2007 2:09 PM pbee has replied

  
pbee
Member (Idle past 6027 days)
Posts: 339
Joined: 06-20-2007


Message 55 of 337 (424307)
09-26-2007 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by bluegenes
09-26-2007 12:55 PM


quote:
Which creation account. There are many creation mythologies.
You know, the one where an entity created life.
quote:
God didn't create the heavens and the earth, and here we are...
Right, and no doubt we have science and reason to back-up such a statement. As I stated, the onset that life originated from nothing is utter nonsense. It defies all laws. It wouldn't be so bad if your proposal was backed by logic(at the very least). At least we would have something to contemplate.
Anti-creationists(atheists etc) will argue, poke fun at and discriminate others for not sharing their beliefs regardless of the level of logic surrounding it. Sure... no one needs to accept creation but discriminating others for believing otherwise is based on barbaric behavior nothing more(old habits die hard).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by bluegenes, posted 09-26-2007 12:55 PM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by bluegenes, posted 09-26-2007 3:29 PM pbee has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 56 of 337 (424311)
09-26-2007 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by pbee
09-26-2007 1:50 PM


pbee writes:
Really? you mean the science police will come and arrest me for selecting logical theories over the illogical ones?
You'll be expected to show how the accepted theories are "illogical" and how your ideas better explain the evidence.
As a free spirited being, I will independently evaluate and conclude what is, and is not, acceptable where science and beliefs are concerned.
Your personal "acceptance" is worthless. Science works by consensus - and even the school boards who accept/reject science work by consensus.
Might I add that only mindless fools would live otherwise(but they do exist nonetheless).
Only mindless fools prefer their own delusions to the tested conclusions of the collected best minds in the world.
quote:
You're welcome to bring that opinion to the science forums and back it up with facts.
We have nothing.
I know you have nothing. That's why you're afraid to back up your empty opinions in the science forums.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by pbee, posted 09-26-2007 1:50 PM pbee has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by pbee, posted 09-26-2007 2:51 PM ringo has replied

  
pbee
Member (Idle past 6027 days)
Posts: 339
Joined: 06-20-2007


Message 57 of 337 (424321)
09-26-2007 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by ringo
09-26-2007 2:09 PM


quote:
You'll be expected to show how the accepted theories are "illogical" and how your ideas better explain the evidence.
Really? last I looked, we existed without any *scientific explanations to that effect. You're waisting time with such dead end attempts to strike an argument. Perhaps you could put a little effort into your next response.
quote:
Your personal "acceptance" is worthless. Science works by consensus - and even the school boards who accept/reject science work by consensus.
You know until now, I was under the impression that we were all independent beings with the inherent capacity of free thought. But now... having read, that "even the school boards" are in on it, well... I'm definitely going to turn such wasteful independent thinking into the widespread trend fitting thinking instead. - Thank-you Ringo for setting me free!(insert sarcasm here)
quote:
Only mindless fools prefer their own delusions to the tested conclusions of the collected best minds in the world.
I know you have nothing. That's why you're afraid to back up your empty opinions in the science forums.
Even for you... this is bellow average. Forgive me for not putting faith into(the best minds in the world) people. Again, only the impressionable will be impressed by those acclaimed by none other than people. Since when has the big bang theory of otherwise been proven? Nothing but cheap talk propped up by more talk.
You're absolutely right! You caught me! I was faking it the whole time. Science has the answers to the origin of life and the onset that matter can indeed come out of nothing and nowheres. As demonstrated by the greatest minds in the world(like you said). Ever hear the saying "Careful what you buy, you get what you pay for". The same applies for education. People are to damned possessive of there purchases, it's an obsession.
Reeling it back in, the problem with teaching in schools and universities is it that the current trends drives people to dishonest presentations of information. Saying the system is biased is a gross understatement. While I have no problems with theories, I do take issue with the thought of educating children with theories presented as fact. If schools and education outlets are going to be honest about the presentation of information, then they should play by their own rules and stop monopolizing the platform.
There is as much worth(if not more) to the theory of creation than the originating of matter from nothing, which in turn ties into eternity, followed by yet more nothing and so on and so forth. Radical atheists, are very careful not to cross the line into eternal realms. All the while, it is logically and empirically impossible to resolve matter without the dreaded element of eternity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by ringo, posted 09-26-2007 2:09 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by jar, posted 09-26-2007 2:55 PM pbee has replied
 Message 61 by ringo, posted 09-26-2007 3:09 PM pbee has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 58 of 337 (424323)
09-26-2007 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by pbee
09-26-2007 2:51 PM


looking for some support to your assertions
While I have no problems with theories, I do take issue with the thought of educating children with theories presented as fact.
And exactly what theories are taught as fact?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by pbee, posted 09-26-2007 2:51 PM pbee has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by pbee, posted 09-26-2007 3:00 PM jar has replied

  
pbee
Member (Idle past 6027 days)
Posts: 339
Joined: 06-20-2007


Message 59 of 337 (424325)
09-26-2007 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by jar
09-26-2007 2:55 PM


Re: looking for some support to your assertions
Big bang theory(as an example). What ever happened to the truth?
Science has no clue how we got here! The existence of all things based on our observations are beyond the scope of our knowledge at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by jar, posted 09-26-2007 2:55 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by jar, posted 09-26-2007 3:03 PM pbee has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 60 of 337 (424326)
09-26-2007 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by pbee
09-26-2007 3:00 PM


Re: looking for some support to your assertions
Please read what you post.
Big bang theory(as an example).
Note the word "Theory?"
Now, do you have an example of theory being taught as fact?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by pbee, posted 09-26-2007 3:00 PM pbee has replied

Replies to this message:
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