Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 60 (9209 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: Skylink
Post Volume: Total: 919,484 Year: 6,741/9,624 Month: 81/238 Week: 81/22 Day: 22/14 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Iran, Nukes, and the End of the World
Tal
Member (Idle past 5931 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 1 of 38 (422736)
09-18-2007 3:28 AM


This Thread is in response to Phat:
Tal, now that I have you on the other end of the horn, I thought I would ask you:
Do you believe that Iran eventually will become the real challenge and potential problem for our way of life?
A guy on the radio was saying that within Islam itself, there are perhaps a million people with fundamentalist global ambitions.
Are they patiently awaiting the day when our nation bankrupts itself into impotence? Will it be necessary to fight these people?
Are there any alternatives for the forseeable future?
I'm going to make the last part of this an informational brief on President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, but first...
Iran: The question of the day is does Iran want nuclear weapons? They absolutely do.
Let's take a look at some open source about the Israeli bombing of Syria on 6 September.
6 Sep Airstrike
Map
Israeli Raid a Dry Run for Iran?
From timesonline.co.uk (article link has been moved)
IT was just after midnight when the 69th Squadron of Israeli F15Is crossed the Syrian coast-line. On the ground, Syria’s formidable air defences went dead. An audacious raid on a Syrian target 50 miles from the Iraqi border was under way.
At a rendezvous point on the ground, a Shaldag air force commando team was waiting to direct their laser beams at the target for the approaching jets. The team had arrived a day earlier, taking up position near a large underground depot. Soon the bunkers were in flames.
Ten days after the jets reached home, their mission was the focus of intense speculation this weekend amid claims that Israel believed it had destroyed a cache of nuclear materials from North Korea.
The Israeli government was not saying. “The security sources and IDF [Israeli Defence Forces] soldiers are demonstrating unusual courage,” said Ehud Olmert, the prime minister. “We naturally cannot always show the public our cards.”
Related Links
A tale of two dictatorships: The links between North Korea and Syria
The Syrians were also keeping mum. “I cannot reveal the details,” said Farouk al-Sharaa, the vice-president. “All I can say is the military and political echelon is looking into a series of responses as we speak. Results are forthcoming.” The official story that the target comprised weapons destined for Hezbollah, the Iranian-backed Lebanese Shi’ite group, appeared to be crumbling in the face of widespread scepticism.
Andrew Semmel, a senior US State Department official, said Syria might have obtained nuclear equipment from “secret suppliers”, and added that there were a “number of foreign technicians” in the country.
Asked if they could be North Korean, he replied: “There are North Korean people there. There’s no question about that.” He said a network run by AQ Khan, the disgraced creator of Pakistan’s nuclear weapons, could be involved.
But why would nuclear material be in Syria? Known to have chemical weapons, was it seeking to bolster its arsenal with something even more deadly?
Alternatively, could it be hiding equipment for North Korea, enabling Kim Jong-il to pretend to be giving up his nuclear programme in exchange for economic aid? Or was the material bound for Iran, as some authorities in America suggest?
According to Israeli sources, preparations for the attack had been going on since late spring, when Meir Dagan, the head of Mossad, presented Olmert with evidence that Syria was seeking to buy a nuclear device from North Korea.
The Israeli spy chief apparently feared such a device could eventually be installed on North-Korean-made Scud-C missiles.
“This was supposed to be a devastating Syrian surprise for Israel,” said an Israeli source. “We’ve known for a long time that Syria has deadly chemical warheads on its Scuds, but Israel can’t live with a nuclear warhead.”
An expert on the Middle East, who has spoken to Israeli participants in the raid, told yesterday’s Washington Post that the timing of the raid on September 6 appeared to be linked to the arrival three days earlier of a ship carrying North Korean material labelled as cement but suspected of concealing nuclear equipment.
The target was identified as a northern Syrian facility that purported to be an agricultural research centre on the Euphrates river. Israel had been monitoring it for some time, concerned that it was being used to extract uranium from phosphates.
According to an Israeli air force source, the Israeli satellite Ofek 7, launched in June, was diverted from Iran to Syria. It sent out high-quality images of a northeastern area every 90 minutes, making it easy for air force specialists to spot the facility.
Early in the summer Ehud Barak, the defence minister, had given the order to double Israeli forces on its Golan Heights border with Syria in anticipation of possible retaliation by Damascus in the event of air strikes.
Sergei Kirpichenko, the Russian ambassador to Syria, warned President Bashar al-Assad last month that Israel was planning an attack, but suggested the target was the Golan Heights.
Israeli military intelligence sources claim Syrian special forces moved towards the Israeli outpost of Mount Hermon on the Golan Heights. Tension rose, but nobody knew why.
At this point, Barak feared events could spiral out of control. The decision was taken to reduce the number of Israeli troops on the Golan Heights and tell Damascus the tension was over. Syria relaxed its guard shortly before the Israeli Defence Forces struck.
Only three Israeli cabinet ministers are said to have been in the know ? Olmert, Barak and Tzipi Livni, the foreign minister. America was also consulted. According to Israeli sources, American air force codes were given to the Israeli air force attaché in Washington to ensure Israel’s F15Is would not mistakenly attack their US counterparts.
Once the mission was under way, Israel imposed draconian military censorship and no news of the operation emerged until Syria complained that Israeli aircraft had violated its airspace. Syria claimed its air defences had engaged the planes, forcing them to drop fuel tanks to lighten their loads as they fled.
But intelligence sources suggested it was a highly successful Israeli raid on nuclear material supplied by North Korea.
Washington was rife with speculation last week about the precise nature of the operation. One source said the air strikes were a diversion for a daring Israeli commando raid, in which nuclear materials were intercepted en route to Iran and hauled to Israel. Others claimed they were destroyed in the attack.
There is no doubt, however, that North Korea is accused of nuclear cooperation with Syria, helped by AQ Khan’s network. John Bolton, who was undersecretary for arms control at the State Department, told the United Nations in 2004 the Pakistani nuclear scientist had “several other” customers besides Iran, Libya and North Korea.
Some of his evidence came from the CIA, which had reported to Congress that it viewed “Syrian nuclear intentions with growing concern”.
“I’ve been worried for some time about North Korea and Iran outsourcing their nuclear programmes,” Bolton said last week. Syria, he added, was a member of a “junior axis of evil”, with a well-established ambition to develop weapons of mass destruction.
The links between Syria and North Korea date back to the rule of Kim Il-sung and President Hafez al-Assad in the last century. In recent months, their sons have quietly ordered an increase in military and technical cooperation.
Foreign diplomats who follow North Korean affairs are taking note. There were reports of Syrian passengers on flights from Beijing to Pyongyang and sightings of Middle Eastern businessmen from sources who watch the trains from North Korea to China.
On August 14, Rim Kyong Man, the North Korean foreign trade minister, was in Syria to sign a protocol on “cooperation in trade and science and technology”. No details were released, but it caught Israel’s attention.
Syria possesses between 60 and 120 Scud-C missiles, which it has bought from North Korea over the past 15 years. Diplomats believe North Korean engineers have been working on extending their 300-mile range. It means they can be used in the deserts of northeastern Syria ? the area of the Israeli strike.
The triangular relationship between North Korea, Syria and Iran continues to perplex intelligence analysts. Syria served as a conduit for the transport to Iran of an estimated 50m of missile components and technology sent by sea from North Korea. The same route may be in use for nuclear equipment.
But North Korea is at a sensitive stage of negotiations to end its nuclear programme in exchange for security guarantees and aid, leading some diplomats to cast doubt on the likelihood that Kim would cross America’s “red line” forbidding the proliferation of nuclear materials.
Christopher Hill, the State Department official representing America in the talks, said on Friday he could not confirm “intelligence-type things”, but the reports underscored the need “to make sure the North Koreans get out of the nuclear business”.
By its actions, Israel showed it is not interested in waiting for diplomacy to work where nuclear weapons are at stake.
As a bonus, the Israelis proved they could penetrate the Syrian air defence system, which is stronger than the one protecting Iranian nuclear sites.
This weekend President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of Iran sent Ali Akbar Mehrabian, his nephew, to Syria to assess the damage. The new “axis of evil” may have lost one of its spokes.
You can read over all of these articles in detail you like. I will go over the relevant highlights.
On 10 September 2007 a [background source] started pitching a story that the air strike had destroyed a uranium pilot enrichment plant that Syria had obtained from North Korea. As far as can be detected, this story did not have legs at that time and no news organization moved it.
On 11 September 2007 a US government official confirmed [on background] that Israeli warplanes were targeting weapons from Iran and destined for Hizballah militants in Lebanon. On 12 September 2007 Mark Mazzetti and Helene Cooper in The New York Times reported that "Officials in Washington said that the most likely targets of the raid were weapons caches that Israel’s government believes Iran has been sending the Lebanese militant group Hezbollah through Syria. Iran and Syria are Hezbollah’s primary benefactors, and American intelligence officials say a steady flow of munitions from Iran runs through Syria and into Lebanon."
On 13 September 2007 Glenn Kessler reported in the Washington Post that " ... a former Israeli official said he had been told that it was an attack against a facility capable of making unconventional weapons."
On 15 September 2007 Glenn Kessler reported in the Washington Post that American sources said that Israel had recently provided the US with evidence -- code named "Orchard" -- that the DPRK had been cooperating with Syria on a nuclear facility. According to one source for this report, the 06 September 2007 air strike appeared to have been linked to the arrival at the Syrian port of Tartus on 03 September 2007 [three days prior to the strike], of a ship carrying material ["labeled as cement"] from North Korea. According to this source, the target of the attack was a Syrian facility "agricultural research center" near the Turkish border. Israel had reportedly been monitoring the facility in the belief that Syria was extracting uranium from phosphates at that location.
On 16 September 2007 the UK newspaper The Observer reported that Israel's strike against Syria involved as many as eight aircraft, including F-15s and F-16s equipped with Maverick missiles and 500 pound bombs, along with an electronic intelligence gathering aircraft. On 16 September 2007 the Sunday Times reported that an IAF commando team arrived on the ground several days before the attack to direct laser beams at the target for the jets.
On 16 September 2007 the Sunday Times quoted an Israeli source as saying that Syria had been planning a "devastating surprise" for Israel, in the wake of reports that the Israel Air Force carried out an air strike against a North Korean nuclear shipment to Syria. The paper reported that Israeli sources said planning for the strike began in late spring 2007 when Mossad director Meir Dagan presented Prime Minister Ehud Olmert with evidence that Syria was seeking to buy a nuclear weapon from North Korea.
On 16 September 2007 former US ambassador to the UN John Bolton said "it will be very unusual for Israel to conduct such a military operation inside Syria other (than) for a very high value target and certainly a Syrian effort in nuclear weapon area will qualify. ... I think this is a clear message not only to Syria, this is a clear message to Iran as well that its continued efforts to acquire nuclear weapons are not going to go unanswered..."
I read an OS (Open Source, unclassified) report that Turkey provided Israel with Intel on this. Take into account that the US has has a 3 day plan to knock out Iran's military and...
Debat was speaking at a meeting organized by The National Interest, a conservative foreign policy journal. He told The Sunday Times that the US military had concluded: “Whether you go for pinprick strikes or all-out military action, the reaction from the Iranians will be the same.”
Iran will also blame Israel for the attack whether any Israeli aircraft or involved or not, thus their reaction will be same.
On the classified side of the house, everyone from the tactical analyst to the Depatment of the Army to the White House to Congress knows Iran is trying to make a nuclear weapon. Hell, even France knows it. I've seen reports from 2 ARAB middle east countries that are ASKING us to attack Iran because they believe it is the only way to prevent them from getting nuclear weapons. They aslo asked us to inform them of the attacks so they can prepare defenses to the Iranian response.
The coming conflict with Iran is inevitable. Israel will not allow it.
"The third element in our defense policy for the 1980s is our determination to prevent confrontation states from gaining access to nuclear weapons. Israel cannot afford the introduction of the nuclear weapon. For us it is not a question of balance of terror but a question of survival. We shall therefore have to prevent such a threat at its inception."
Minister of Defense Ariel Sharon
15 December 1981
SWITCHING TO THEOLOGY
President Tom (Ahmadenijad): I did a classified report on him.
Tom is simply the finger puppet of Khameni. The Ayatollahs are the Shia Cardinal equivalents. Islam used to have a Pope equivalent. He was called the Caliph. Remember the movie "The 13th Warrior?" Well the 12th Imam of Shia Islam disappeared as a child in 941. Shia Muslims have awaited his reappearance ever since, believing that when he returns, he will reign on earth for seven years, before bringing about the Last Judgment and the end of the world. Now, Christains have an end of the world scenario too. But we know we don't influence God's timing for those events. Islam thinks opposite. They believe they can influence the divine time table by destorying Israel to set up the return of the Mahdi and the Caliphate...as it's called.
Sound familiar? Anti Christ anyone?
Too far fetched? Read Tom's speach he gave to the UN. I'll post a link to the full text, but I'll quote his last statements here.
"Dear Friends and Colleagues,
"From the beginning of time, humanity has longed for the day when justice, peace, equality and compassion envelop the world. All of us can contribute to the establishment of such a world. When that day comes, the ultimate promise of all Divine religions will be fulfilled with the emergence of a perfect human being who is heir to all prophets and pious men. He will lead the world to justice and absolute peace.
"O mighty Lord, I pray to you to hasten the emergence of your last repository, the promised one, that perfect and pure human being, the one that will fill this world with justice and peace.
Tom's chat with the UN
Edited by Tal, : Can't spell today

If those WMD that don't exist were easier to identify and handled properly, then this would not have occurred.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by jar, posted 09-18-2007 11:05 AM Tal has replied
 Message 3 by Taz, posted 09-18-2007 11:16 AM Tal has not replied
 Message 6 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-18-2007 11:54 AM Tal has not replied
 Message 7 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-18-2007 12:05 PM Tal has not replied
 Message 8 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-18-2007 12:10 PM Tal has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 2 of 38 (422786)
09-18-2007 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tal
09-18-2007 3:28 AM


The greatest Danger in the World are Christian End Timers.
While there is the potential for some End Times Nutjob Muslim to take control of a Nuclear State, Pakistain certainly is a possibility, the real threat is not from the Muslim End Time Nutjobs but rather the Christian End Time Nutjobs.
No Muslim State is likely to create a nuclear arsenal that is sufficient to destroy the earth in anything like a short period of time, however the US and a few other Nation States already possess such capability. The rise to power of an End Times Nutjob in one of the Christian States is a far greater threat to the world.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tal, posted 09-18-2007 3:28 AM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Taz, posted 09-18-2007 11:26 AM jar has not replied
 Message 14 by Tal, posted 09-19-2007 12:46 AM jar has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3545 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 3 of 38 (422789)
09-18-2007 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tal
09-18-2007 3:28 AM


I usually stay away from this kind of debate because I honestly don't know enough or care enough to look through the info. But isn't it obvious that they do want nuclear weapons?
I see nuclear weapons are like personal hand grenades. If I get into a hand fight with Muhamed Ali (a conventional fight), I'd definitely lose because it's an unfair fight. But if I carry around a personal hand grenade, he'd be crazy to get near me. Russia got hand grenades because they were afraid of us. China got hand grenades because they were afraid of russia. India got hand grenades because they were afraid of China. Pakistan got hand grenades because they were afraid of India.
So, I see nuclear weapons as more of a defensive weapon than offensive. For Iran to go against the US military in the conventional way is like me going against Muhammed Ali in a hand fight. It's an unfair fight. Unless Allah brings his wrath upon the American whores, nobody is going to doubt that Iran will lose. But if they have nuclear weapons, we'd be stupid to go near.
With that said, I think that's why everybody essentially wants nuclear weapons. They don't have the economy or the population to build up a strong conventional army. A nuke, on the other hand, will ensure that bigger and stronger conventional armies won't come near them.
About the anti-christ thing, I'll just have to wait and see how this turns out.
Added by edit.
Shouldn't the anti-christ have a name something like Mal Abbas or something like that?
Edited by Tazmanius Devilus, : No reason given.

Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tal, posted 09-18-2007 3:28 AM Tal has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Chiroptera, posted 09-18-2007 12:13 PM Taz has not replied
 Message 11 by Phat, posted 09-18-2007 1:19 PM Taz has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3545 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 4 of 38 (422792)
09-18-2007 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by jar
09-18-2007 11:05 AM


Re: The greatest Danger in the World are Christian End Timers.
jar writes:
No Muslim State is likely to create a nuclear arsenal that is sufficient to destroy the earth in anything like a short period of time, however the US and a few other Nation States already possess such capability.
Not necessarily. Haven't you seen the movie Dr. Strangelove? To quote the good scientist, "The doomsday machine is well within the capability of even the smallest nuclear power. It only requires the will to do so."

Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by jar, posted 09-18-2007 11:05 AM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Dr Jack, posted 09-18-2007 11:29 AM Taz has not replied

  
Dr Jack
Member (Idle past 129 days)
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 5 of 38 (422795)
09-18-2007 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Taz
09-18-2007 11:26 AM


Re: The greatest Danger in the World are Christian End Timers.
I think there may be nukes dropped in our future but, before that, it'll all be pretty much over for civilisation anyway. We're not going to go down in a grand ball of flame we're going to go the way pretty much every other civilisation has: overpopulation and environmental destruction.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Taz, posted 09-18-2007 11:26 AM Taz has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 38 (422798)
09-18-2007 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tal
09-18-2007 3:28 AM


Global ambitions
We are in agreement that Iran is a hostile nation that seeks harm to the Western world. Most unfortunately, I dare say we are on the cusp of outright war. I wish it were not so, but that's the nature of things when diplomacy fails.
Anti Christ anyone?
Well, I believe large swaths of the Muslim populace might interpret it in this way, which surely would be very bad, but I have considerable doubt that the rest of the world will follow suit.
The Biblical anti-christ will likely be of European decent. As well, the Bible describes that virtually everyone will embrace their new leader. Currently, there are many, many people that are in stark defiance of extremist Islam. I suppose it isn't impossible, but implausible to say the least.

"It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tal, posted 09-18-2007 3:28 AM Tal has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3851 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 7 of 38 (422802)
09-18-2007 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tal
09-18-2007 3:28 AM


No one is going to destroy the earth. The earth has already taken far bigger hits than all the world's weapons going off at once can inflict.
We might, with great effort, be able to destroy our own species. But that's a different thing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tal, posted 09-18-2007 3:28 AM Tal has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Chiroptera, posted 09-18-2007 12:17 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3851 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 8 of 38 (422805)
09-18-2007 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tal
09-18-2007 3:28 AM


Dueling prophecies
Iran is not going to bring about the end of the world.
You may make your plans accordingly.
You're welcome.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tal, posted 09-18-2007 3:28 AM Tal has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 38 (422809)
09-18-2007 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Taz
09-18-2007 11:16 AM


For Iran to go against the US military in the conventional way is like me going against Muhammed Ali in a hand fight. It's an unfair fight.
And remember that Iran does have legitimate reasons to fear the U.S.

You can observe a lot by watching. -- Yogi Berra

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Taz, posted 09-18-2007 11:16 AM Taz has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 38 (422812)
09-18-2007 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Archer Opteryx
09-18-2007 12:05 PM


But that's a different thing.
Heh. And not necessarily a bad one.
Of course, I would always hope that the inevitable demise of our species would be relatively painless, but oh well.

You can observe a lot by watching. -- Yogi Berra

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-18-2007 12:05 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18647
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 11 of 38 (422834)
09-18-2007 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Taz
09-18-2007 11:16 AM


Two Scenarios
Taz writes:
I see nuclear weapons as more of a defensive weapon than offensive. For Iran to go against the US military in the conventional way is like me going against Muhammad Ali in a hand fight. It's an unfair fight. Unless Allah brings his wrath upon the American whores, nobody is going to doubt that Iran will lose. But if they have nuclear weapons, we'd be stupid to go near.
I see two possible scenarios that will lead to such a war as none of us want.
Either
1) A Terrorist attack similar to 9-11 will bring public opinion (and thus the wrath of the U.S.) into another excuse to invade yet another country...(Probably Iran or Syria)...which will be a no-win situation for everyone...
2) Israel will do something such as they did years ago when they knocked out Tehrans nuclear reactor. I don't blame Israel for being a bit paranoid, however....they are the smallest country by far in the Mid East region...(apart from perhaps Oman or Quatar) and they will never allow their security to be compromised.
The only way out of this mess IMHO is for the U.S. to diplomatically come to peace with Islam. Islamic (and U.S. Christian) Fundamentalism will not allow this to happen.
So as ogo_-_Earth_Day_1971_poster.jpg]--> Pogo -->ogo_-_Earth_Day_1971_poster.jpg"> Pogo < !--UE--> Once said..."We have met the enemy and he is us!"
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Taz, posted 09-18-2007 11:16 AM Taz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by ringo, posted 09-18-2007 1:55 PM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 666 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 12 of 38 (422849)
09-18-2007 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Phat
09-18-2007 1:19 PM


Re: Two Scenarios
Phat writes:
I see two possible scenarios that will lead to such a war as none of us want.
As opposed to the war you're in now, which you do want?
Attractive as a Mid-East holocaust might be to some people, it seems far more likely that the string of Vietnam-like quagmires will continue unabated.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Phat, posted 09-18-2007 1:19 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Phat, posted 09-18-2007 2:01 PM ringo has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18647
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 13 of 38 (422850)
09-18-2007 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by ringo
09-18-2007 1:55 PM


Re: Two Scenarios
Ringo writes:
Attractive as a Mid-East holocaust might be to some people, it seems far more likely that the string of Vietnam-like quagmires will continue unabated.
And we will continue depleting our resources! I think that the U.S. is already losing and shall continue to lose. Why the heck can't we spend our money to fix our own darn infrastructure...rather than blowing up and then helping our "enemies" rebuild theirs??

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by ringo, posted 09-18-2007 1:55 PM ringo has not replied

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 5931 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 14 of 38 (422967)
09-19-2007 12:46 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by jar
09-18-2007 11:05 AM


Re: Kansas City Shuffle.
The rise to power of an End Times Nutjob in one of the Christian States is a far greater threat to the world.
You are focused on the perceived threat of the Christian fundamentalist while Islamic fundamentalist leaders are saying,
"Dear Friends and Colleagues,
"From the beginning of time, humanity has longed for the day when justice, peace, equality and compassion envelop the world. All of us can contribute to the establishment of such a world. When that day comes, the ultimate promise of all Divine religions will be fulfilled with the emergence of a perfect human being who is heir to all prophets and pious men. He will lead the world to justice and absolute peace.
"O mighty Lord, I pray to you to hasten the emergence of your last repository, the promised one, that perfect and pure human being, the one that will fill this world with justice and peace.
and...
"Anybody who recognizes Israel will burn in the fire of the Islamic nation's fury."
"Remove Israel before it is too late and save yourself from the fury of regional nations."
"Remove Israel before it is too late and save yourself from the fury of regional nations."
"If the West does not support Israel, this regime will be toppled. As it has lost its raison d' tre, Israel will be annihilated."
"[There is] no significant need for the United States."
"We increasingly see that people around the world are flocking towards a main focal point - that is the Almighty God. My question for you is, 'Do you not want to join them?'"
I'm afraid of the End Times Nutjob that thinks they can bring about. I don't really care about the End Times Nutjob that is just waiting for it.

If those WMD that don't exist were easier to identify and handled properly, then this would not have occurred.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by jar, posted 09-18-2007 11:05 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by jar, posted 09-19-2007 11:29 AM Tal has replied

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 5931 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 15 of 38 (422991)
09-19-2007 4:38 AM


and in a completely unrelated story...
'Dozens died in Syria-Iran missile test'
Proof of cooperation between Iran and Syria in the proliferation and development of weapons of mass destruction was brought to light Monday in a Jane's Defence Weekly report that dozens of Iranian engineers and 15 Syrian officers were killed in a July 23 accident in Syria.
According to the report, cited by Channel 10, the joint Syrian-Iranian team was attempting to mount a chemical warhead on a Scud missile when the explosion occurred, spreading lethal chemical agents, including sarin nerve gas.
Reports of the accident were circulated at the time; however, no details were released by the Syrian government, and there were no hints of an Iranian connection.
The report comes on the heels of criticism leveled by the Syrians at the United States, accusing it of spreading "false" claims of Syrian nuclear activity and cooperation with North Korea to excuse an alleged Israeli air incursion over the country this month.
According to globalsecurity.org, Syria is not a signatory of either the Chemical Weapons Convention (CWC), - an international agreement banning the production, stockpiling or use of chemical weapons - or the Comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban Treaty (CTBT).
Syria began developing chemical weapons in 1973, just before the Yom Kipper War. Globalsecurity.org cites the country as having one of the most advanced chemical weapons programs in the Middle East.

If those WMD that don't exist were easier to identify and handled properly, then this would not have occurred.

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024