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Author | Topic: How can Biologists believe in the ToE? | |||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2463 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
c'mon, vash, tell me what you think.
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nator Member (Idle past 2463 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
...
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nator Member (Idle past 2463 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
c'mon, you two.
Time to deal with the implications of your position.
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nator Member (Idle past 2463 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Best way to shut me up is to reply, you two.
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nator Member (Idle past 2463 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: "Silly" discussion? What was that? You wouldn't be treating others with condecention and contempt and trying to belittle their ideas, would you? Do you like it when people treat your ideas like that? If you object to it, don't you think others do as well?
quote: It is perfectly acceptable to invite someone to an appropriate thread to answer an off-topic question or discuss an off-topic issue. In fact, that is what we are supposed to do. As for you having "no idea" of these things, you must, otherwise you wouldn't make the claims that you do. You have repeatedly said that people who accept the Theory of Evolution are mistaken. Such a claim has logical consequences. Like, if it is true, then you must believe that all Biologists, Paleontologists, and Geneticists are so dunderheaded and horrible at doing science that they don't realize how wrong they all are about everything they've discovered. Or, you must believe that there is a worldwide conspiracy among professional scientists to delude the public into thinking that the ToE is true when it is really false. If you don't think either one of these scenarios is correct, then what is your explanation for why these hundreds of thousands of professional scientists have gone so incredibly wrong in their science over the last 150 years or more?
quote: So, are you saying that people who believe in God only have a tentative belief in God which could be rejected if new evidence comes to light? Edited by nator, : No reason given. Edited by nator, : No reason given.
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nator Member (Idle past 2463 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Well, the topic is based on the opening post, not the title. The opening post explained what was meant by the title (which was a paraphrase of someone who was incredulous that anyone would accept the ToE), and expanded upon the implications of that position for professional scientists.
Such a claim has logical consequences. Like, if it is true, then you must believe that all Biologists, Paleontologists, and Geneticists are so dunderheaded and horrible at doing science that they don't realize how wrong they all are about everything they've discovered. Or, you must believe that there is a worldwide conspiracy among professional scientists to delude the public into thinking that the ToE is true when it is really false. quote: This is not an appeal to authority. It is merely the logical implication of your position.
quote: Sure, but you aren't talking about one study. You are talking about hundreds of thousands of scientists in various fields being completely wrong about the fundamental unifying theory for all of the Life Sciences. It would be similar to saying that Physicists are wrong for accepting the Atomic Theory of Matter. But anyway, who do you think discovers if a scientific study is wrong?
quote: Learning how to test hypotheses is the entirety of the Graduate and Post-Doctoral training of any scientist. This includes how to make valid inferences (conclusions) from the evidence. If you are attacking their conclusions, you are attacking their ability as competent scientists. Since all current work is based upon past work in science, don't you think anybody working in Evolutionary Genetics, say, might notice that the Genetics papers they are basing their own research on are fundamentally flawed? How is it that scientists currently working are able to make successful predictions based upon all of this faulty past research?
So, are you saying that people who believe in God only have a tentative belief in God which could be rejected if new evidence comes to light? quote: Unresponsive. You claimed that people believe in God and science both based their belief upon;
quote: One of the basic tenets of the scientific method is that of "tentativity", which means that no theory is held to be an unchangeable eternal truth and can be challenged with appropriate evidence at any time. Indeed, overturning old dominant paradigms in the light of new and compelling evidence is how careers are made in science. Correcting errors in work made by past researchers and refining the knowledge those in the past provided us in the present to base our work upon is how all progress is made in science. This is how science operates. New findings that contradict old ones are not rejected outright just because they contradict; they are tested and tested some more to see if they hold up. If they do, then the old theories are modified or rejected in favor of the new. Is this the way people wo believe in God think about their faith? With constant doubt and willingness to set it aside when something better comes along?
If you don't think either one of these scenarios is correct, then what is your explanation for why these hundreds of thousands of professional scientists have gone so incredibly wrong in their science over the last 150 years or more? quote: No, not at all. However, the ToE is supported by many diciplines other than just Biology; the findings of Geology, Physics and Genetics are all consistent with, and in fact strengthen, the findings of Biology.
quote: Any scientist will note in a paper if their finding contradicts or coincides with the rest of the body of evidence in their field.
quote: The list you provided doesn't really answer the question of the OP, though. Do you really believe that hundreds of thousands of scientists over 150 years have been so very bad at doing science that they haven't noticed what is so incredibly obvious to a few religious non-scientists; that the fundamental theoretical underpinnings of all of the Life Sciences is completely false? That if they would just read those Creationist websites they would realize that everything that any Life Scientist has concluded from their research in the last 100 or more years is completely misguided?
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nator Member (Idle past 2463 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Vashgun, I asked you in my last post:
Do you really believe that hundreds of thousands of scientists over 150 years have been so very bad at doing science that they haven't noticed what is so incredibly obvious to a few religious non-scientists; that the fundamental theoretical underpinnings of all of the Life Sciences is completely false? That if they would just read those Creationist websites they would realize that everything that any Life Scientist has concluded from their research in the last 100 or more years is completely misguided? Dr. A has also asked you the same question several times. What say you? How can so many scientists be so completely wrong?
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nator Member (Idle past 2463 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Please, everyone, you are being sucked in to Vashgun's avoidance of the OP by arguing evidence with him.
The topic is not geological strata, nor living dinosaurs, as much fun as it is to discuss these things with a scoffer. The topic is, "How can Biologists believe in the ToE?" Specifically, from the OP, the issue is:
Do you really think that the hundreds of thousands of scientists who have been advancing our understanding Biology over the last 150 years at the most astonishing pace have all just been deluded? Since several of the main occupations of scientists are critically examining theory and trying to falsify hypotheses, are you also accusing all of those Biologists of being so poor at doing science that they have, to a person, missed the fact that the overarching, foundational theory that underpins all Biology is completely false? Vashgun is avoiding answering this question and you all are helping him avoid it. If you are going to get into specifics of eviidence, at least frame it in terms of the OP.
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nator Member (Idle past 2463 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Sure, they could all be deluded.
But the question is really, is it probable? And you answered that already.
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nator Member (Idle past 2463 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Show me the "good" Creation science. I've certainly never seen any. Creationists almost never do science, actually. They spend much of their time writing non-peer reviewed popular press books full of untruths and distortions of real scientists' work. The rest of their time they spend manouvering in local school politics to try to sneak their religious views into science classes.
quote: Er, how can a kid in school "know" that a subject "isn't true" before she has even learned anything about it? If the basis for her non-acceptance of Biology is religiously based, then she hasn't made a determination based upon rational assesment of the evidence.
quote: Tell me, Q, should the people believe who in alien abductions, that the Holocaust never happened, that the 9/11 WTC bombing was a Bush regime conspiracy be allowed to determine for our schools what is "fact"? After all, it is just their "worldview" that determines what they "feel" is fact, right?
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nator Member (Idle past 2463 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: As others have said, I'd like to see some.
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nator Member (Idle past 2463 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
So, Tal, are you going to address the OP, or are you going to continue to proclaim that evolution is false while sidestepping the problem of all those incompetent scientists and all those "impossible" successful predictions and that worldwide conspiracy to deceive the public?
Just to reiterate the issue you should address, this is from the OP:
Do you really think that the hundreds of thousands of scientists who have been advancing our understanding Biology over the last 150 years at the most astonishing pace have all just been deluded? Since several of the main occupations of scientists are critically examining theory and trying to falsify hypotheses, are you also accusing all of those Biologists of being so poor at doing science that they have, to a person, missed the fact that the overarching, foundational theory that underpins all Biology is completely false? Edited by nator, : No reason given.
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nator Member (Idle past 2463 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Do you really think that the hundreds of thousands of scientists who have been advancing our understanding Biology over the last 150 years at the most astonishing pace have all just been deluded? Since several of the main occupations of scientists are critically examining theory and trying to falsify hypotheses, are you also accusing all of those Biologists of being so poor at doing science that they have, to a person, missed the fact that the overarching, foundational theory that underpins all Biology is completely false?
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nator Member (Idle past 2463 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
So your contention is that all the thousands of biologists that actually study biology and evolution come to wrong conclusions because they don't understand something that you - knowing nothing of biology or evolution by comparison - happen to know? They are deluded? Incompetent? Myopic? All of them? quote: So what is your explanation for how hundreds of thousands of scientists could be so wrong about the very foundational underpinnings of their work? The post undergraduate training of any scientist consists almost entirely of learning how to test hypotheses. How is it that thousands and thousands of scientists in the Life sciences are so poor at testing hypotheses (i.e. being scientists) that they haven't discovered this fatal error? How is it that when scientists today make predictions based on scientists' work form the past, they are often successful, if that past work is so deeply flawed?
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nator Member (Idle past 2463 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
So, are you saying that thousands of scientists are just really bad at doing science?
Like, incompetent? Also, why are predictions based upon the Theory of Evolution ever successful, if it is so incredibly wrong? Edited by nator, : No reason given.
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