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Author Topic:   Omnipotence and the Existence of Evil
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4089 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 1 of 25 (40967)
05-22-2003 3:52 AM


I believe it's Crashfrog I was hoping to woo here with this topic. It may have been Nosy Ned. My memory is so much worse than it was when I was younger.
Anyway, one of them occasionally signs off with a statement that God is either powerless, immoral or both, because of the great evil in the world. I didn't have a good answer to this, and I wanted one, so I even checked out a book from the library called _The Omnipotence of God_ by Howard Redmond. Mostly, it was a horrible disappointment. The best he could do was, "Another important conclusion of this book is that the finite-infinite category be dropped from theological discourse...this in no sense implies God's finitude, but only the applicability of the category to divine reality."
What that means is that he's not going to try to claim God is infinitely powerful, because that brings up a real problem with the existence of evil. Can't an omnipotent God create a universe with free will but without evil? In the end, Redmond says, "I really don't want to answer that question, so I'm going to say God's omnipotent, but not infinitely omnipotent."
I guess you can be that silly in theology school.
He does, however, bring up David Hume, about whom I know almost nothing, but I was interested in the quotes in this book. Hume has a character named Philo who suggests, "It would seem that God must be either impotent or malevolent, for if he is neither, why should there be evil in the world?" Since that is the very topic I wanted to address, I want to put forth Redmond's treatment of Hume for discussion.
This writer says that while we cannot necessarily reconcile an omnipotent and good God with a universe with so much suffering, we also cannot rule both out. He quotes Hume as saying, "Pain or misery in man is compatible with infinite power and goodness in the Deity." He says, however, that for Hume, mere compatibility was not enough.
To sum up, he says, "In the _Dialogues_, Cleanthes, with whom Hume most closely identifies himself, observes that there is no necessary conflict between divine goodness and divine power. To be sure, there is a _possible_ conflict between them."
That said as a long introduction, my position is that it is logically possible for an omnipotent and beneficent Creator to create a universe in which evil is possible and suffering is common, and that a kind Creator would not necessarily intervene in every circumstance of evil and suffering, leaving such intervention to the mercy or lack of it in his creatures.
That would not be the first thing I would expect, but because I believe in God, and believe I have experienced God, and because I think that the God I believe in claims to be Creator of the universe, and I see that evil and suffering do exist, I ask the question, "Is it logically impossible for what I see and believe to be true."
My answer is no. I think an omnipotent and moral Creator could create the universe we see.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by compmage, posted 05-22-2003 7:34 AM truthlover has replied
 Message 5 by NosyNed, posted 05-22-2003 11:34 AM truthlover has not replied
 Message 7 by crashfrog, posted 05-22-2003 1:13 PM truthlover has replied
 Message 13 by NeoPagan, posted 05-29-2003 5:47 PM truthlover has not replied

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4089 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 3 of 25 (40998)
05-22-2003 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by compmage
05-22-2003 7:34 AM


quote:
Only if you...define beneficent in such a way that God could be willing to allow evil and suffering while at the same time being capable of removing them and still be considered beneficent. Which kinda defeats the point.
I think most people who have believed in an omnipotent and beneficent God in the past have defined beneficent in just such a way. Why does it defeat the point?
That definition seems worse if you believe this life is all there is.
Limiting omnipotence would mean limiting it so much that God can't protect victims, and that does seem to defeat the point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by compmage, posted 05-22-2003 7:34 AM compmage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by compmage, posted 05-22-2003 10:40 AM truthlover has replied

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4089 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 8 of 25 (41039)
05-22-2003 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by crashfrog
05-22-2003 1:13 PM


Well, that was easy. I actually hate discussions like this, but your (Crash's) occasional reference to the omnipotence/evil/morality thing seemed a legitimate question that I couldn't just let go.
If everyone's going, "Well, whatever, if it's good enough for you, great, but it not's good enough for me," I'm really happy to leave it there.
Back to facts, fossils, and all that nice, concrete stuff.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by crashfrog, posted 05-22-2003 1:13 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by crashfrog, posted 05-22-2003 4:46 PM truthlover has not replied

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4089 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 9 of 25 (41040)
05-22-2003 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by compmage
05-22-2003 10:40 AM


quote:
It does however allow that God might not be worthy of worship.
Here, we agree, at least on the "might" part.
I would grant the burden of proof is on the theists (like me) who say that God ought to be worshipped and served. In the twentieth century, that proof is sorely lacking, not because of the increase in scientific knowledge, but because of the lack of a powerful and benevolent spiritual group that could display the power and benevolence of the Creator we assert exists and ought to be worshipped.
For me, the whole issue is easy. The time is coming when we'll have something to show that impresses more than just ourselves, or I really am wrong, and I'll have to join you guys. For the moment, I'm impressed.
Give us some time...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by compmage, posted 05-22-2003 10:40 AM compmage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by compmage, posted 05-22-2003 3:39 PM truthlover has replied

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4089 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 12 of 25 (41045)
05-22-2003 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by compmage
05-22-2003 3:39 PM


quote:
I have one question though, how long are you willing to wait before deciding that maybe the evidence you are expecting isn't coming?
Ah, a question that's not so difficult to handle as philosophical arguments.
It took me till, say, 1986 to figure out the Christianity I was a part of was failing at everything we claimed Christianity could do for a person. I kept looking, in hope, for some branch that would produce the things Christianity claims it will produce. I started giving up hope around 93, and I was on the verge of quitting my search in 1995. My wife was already telling me I was chasing a pipe dream by then.
Then we found what we were looking for. It's small, but as it is written, "Don't despise the day of small things." When the group we are a part of now stops being exactly what we expected to find when we began searching for a Christianity that's potent and real, then I'll probably give up. Until then, our life's pretty exciting, very unusual, and leaves me with a lot of hope that there's really something coming. I wish I could show it to you. You might not agree, but I reckon you'd certainly understand.
So my answer is, it sure looks like things are heading in exactly the direction I would hope they would be, and as long as that's true, I see no reason to lose hope at all. If this crashes and burns, then I can't imagine I'd have much, if any, faith left in me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by compmage, posted 05-22-2003 3:39 PM compmage has not replied

  
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