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Author Topic:   The "Digital Code" of DNA
ringo
Member (Idle past 665 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 60 of 143 (409284)
07-08-2007 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Fosdick
07-08-2007 12:42 PM


Re: Back to digital codes
Hoot Mon writes:
I fail to grasp the importance of your point. Of course it's all about physical arrangements of nucleotides.
Then why do you keep arguing with me?
... are you suggesting that I am referring to a metaphysical code?
I repeat: for @#$% sake, please tell us what you are referring to.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 665 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 67 of 143 (409925)
07-12-2007 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Rob
07-12-2007 9:33 AM


Re: Dean Kenyon
Rob writes:
We can test over and over... to show that proteins are assembled using genetic information. So it is emperically factual.
That's not the issue here.
The issue is whether or not genetic information is a "digital code" that is somehow above and beyond the structure of the DNA molecule.
The existence or non-existence of a designer is irrelevant and Dean Kenyon's conversion to hand-waving incredulity is irrelevant.

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 Message 66 by Rob, posted 07-12-2007 9:33 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Rob, posted 07-12-2007 10:13 AM ringo has replied
 Message 70 by Fosdick, posted 07-12-2007 10:29 AM ringo has replied
 Message 101 by Rob, posted 07-13-2007 2:18 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 665 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 69 of 143 (409930)
07-12-2007 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Rob
07-12-2007 10:13 AM


Re: Dean Kenyon
Rob writes:
Perhaps it would be illustrative for me to provide another quote of Kenyon's to you on the subject more directly.
Illustrative of Kenyon's incredulity, yes. Since he provides no basis whatsoever for his assertions, illustrative of his handwaving too.
Pertinent to the topic, no.
We are not discussing "a chemical evolutionary origin for even the simplest of cells". We are not discussing origins of any kind.
Regardless of the origin of the simplest of cells, is there a "code" that is not accounted for by the chemical structure of the DNA molecule? Nobody has shown any evidence that there is.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 665 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 71 of 143 (409933)
07-12-2007 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Fosdick
07-12-2007 10:29 AM


Re: Code above-and-beyond DNA
Hoot Mon writes:
No one ever said that genetic code is "somehow above and beyond the structure of the DNA molecule."
Then why do you keep arguing?

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Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 665 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 73 of 143 (409939)
07-12-2007 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Fosdick
07-12-2007 10:47 AM


Re: Code above-and-beyond DNA
Hoot Mon writes:
Because you refuse to see that nucleic acids are capable of encoding, storing, translating, and transmitting digital genetic information.
I haven't said anything of the kind.
If you read the OP:
quote:
I argue, as do many others:
DNA/RNA are just chemicals. Not something more thanks to this "digital code". This is not a hinderance to any hypothesis of abiogenesis.
that is what I'm agreeing with.
If you have any evidence that that is incorrect, please present it and stop wasting my time with the same prattle over and over again.

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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Fosdick, posted 07-12-2007 11:09 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 665 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 75 of 143 (409945)
07-12-2007 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Fosdick
07-12-2007 11:09 AM


Re: Code above-and-beyond DNA
Hoot Mon writes:
Do you know of any other natural molecules besides nucleic acids that contain digital codes?
Been there. Done that.
All molecules contain information in their structures. All molecules do chemistry based on their structures.
The "code" is simply a human construct used to help understand the structure. It's simpler to write a short code-word than to draw the whole structure of the molecule. That's all the "code" is. It isn't something inherent in the molecule itself.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Fosdick, posted 07-12-2007 11:32 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 665 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 77 of 143 (409953)
07-12-2007 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Fosdick
07-12-2007 11:32 AM


Re: Code above-and-beyond DNA
Hoot Mon writes:
If DNA is not inherently capable of storing digital code....
I didn't say that. I said that the "code" is the structure of the molecule.
... how do you explain genetic mutation by way of single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs)?
Mutations consist of atoms - and/or groups of atoms - "moving" to a different location on the structure, don't they? How does that have anything to do with "digits"?

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 Message 76 by Fosdick, posted 07-12-2007 11:32 AM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Fosdick, posted 07-12-2007 11:56 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 665 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 80 of 143 (409957)
07-12-2007 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Fosdick
07-12-2007 11:56 AM


Re: Code above-and-beyond DNA?
Hoot Mon writes:
No one's saying that genetic codes fly around on their own.
Read the OP. That's the only question here.
If you agree that there is no "digital code" except for the chemistry of the molecule, then we're done.

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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Fosdick, posted 07-12-2007 12:41 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 665 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 82 of 143 (409964)
07-12-2007 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Fosdick
07-12-2007 12:41 PM


Re: Code above-and-beyond DNA?
Hoot Mon writes:
Clearly, the truth is that there are no know chemical principles that account for the evolution of a digital genetic code.
That isn't clear at all. I have asked you repeatedly, over several threads, to back up that statement. Kindly show us, once and for all, something that is not accounted for by known chemical principles.
Nucleic acids are the only molecules we know of that hold digital genetic code.
False, as I have explained repeatedly. All molecules hold the same code - the principles of chemical bonding.
I believe that abiogenesis must have included the evolution of a digital genetic code. If it did not, then I would have to ask how anything ever got inherited.
All molecules "inherit" the same principles of chemical bonding.
The "code" is nothing more than that.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Fosdick, posted 07-12-2007 12:41 PM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Fosdick, posted 07-12-2007 1:09 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 665 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 85 of 143 (409967)
07-12-2007 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Fosdick
07-12-2007 1:09 PM


Re: Code above-and-beyond DNA?
Hoot Mon writes:
You still cannot differentiate codes from bondings.
If there's a difference, show it.
If chemical bonding is all there is to it, then why should the order of the bondings have any relevance to the function of a DNA molecule?
Because the "order of the bondings" - the structure of the molecule - determines the reactions that it undergoes. Move one functional group and the behaviour of the molecule is completely different.
By way of your reasoning, a DNA molecule could be ordered in any way and not impair its function...
Exactly. It doesn't "impair" it's function - it just changes how it functions. Different ordering produces different reactions which produce different products. It's the same for any molecule.

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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Fosdick, posted 07-12-2007 1:41 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 665 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 87 of 143 (409970)
07-12-2007 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Fosdick
07-12-2007 1:41 PM


Re: Code above-and-beyond DNA?
Hoot Mon writes:
The ordering of DNA is not the same thing as the ordering a quartz crystal.
Their ordering is based on the same chemical principles.
Very different kinds of information are involved.
Irrelevant. The information is stored/carried in exactly the same way.
... the quartz crystal has nothing in its structure that even faintly resembles the digital genetic information encoded on a DNA molecule.
The information itself is different, but the way it is stored and used is exactly the same.
Their electromagnetic bonding properties and principles may be the same, but their informative properties and principles are quite different.
But it's the principles that we're talking about. You claimed earlier that DNA operates on some phantom unknown principle.
There's nothing fundamentally different between a DNA molecule and any other molecule. They all bond in the same ways. They all vary in their behaviour based on their structure alone. They all carry their own information in the same way.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Fosdick, posted 07-12-2007 2:57 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 665 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 91 of 143 (409991)
07-12-2007 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Fosdick
07-12-2007 2:57 PM


Re: Code above-and-beyond DNA?
Hoot Mon writes:
Linear digital codes carrying genetic information are found on only one kind of molecule”nucleic acids....
Nonsense. A code has been applied to nucleic acids to make it easier to understand the structure.
Here's water: HOH
Here's methanol: CH3OH
We can also call it: methyl-OH
"Methyl" is just a code-word for "CH3". It doesn't indicate different principles - it's just shorthand. Same thing with your supposed "digital code" in DNA. It's just a shorthand method of describing the structure of the molecule. Nothing more.
... and electromagnetic bonding principles do not explain their ordering.
For @#$#@#%$#@# sake, SHOW us how chemical bonding principles fail to explain "ordering" in nucleic acids.
... a quartz crystal has no heritable properties because it lacks serial generations to which encoded information can be passed.
And that's the only reason. The chemical principles governing a quartz crystal are identical to the principles governing nucleic acids.
Edited by Ringo, : Fixed mismatched quotes.
Edited by Ringo, : CapItaLIzAtIOn.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 665 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 93 of 143 (409995)
07-12-2007 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by New Cat's Eye
07-12-2007 4:47 PM


Re: Code above-and-beyond DNA?
Catholic Scientist writes:
Why can Hoot not understand this? Is he just being disingenuous?
I dunno. This is about the fourth thread where I've tried to get through to him.
In 1972, when Nixon was re-elected, defeating McGovern, somebody quipped that, "America would rather have a smart crook than an honest fool as president." I try to take people at their word and accept that they really are as dopey as they pretend to be.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 665 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 95 of 143 (410017)
07-12-2007 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Fosdick
07-12-2007 7:22 PM


Re: Code above-and-beyond DNA?
Hoot Mon writes:
We're saying that there is a real, actual, and unambiguous genetic code that engages nucleotides as digits to hold heritable information about the expression of proteins.
Instead of repeating and repeating that empty claim, why not produce some evidence?
I am saying that all elephants are mammals. If you claim to have discovered a reptilephant, the onus is on you to produce the evidence.
I'm also saying that all molecules follow the same chemical principles. If you claim to have discovered an exception, the onus is on you to produce the evidence.
I have asked you and asked you and asked you to produce the evidence for your claims and all you have produced is nothing and nothing and nothing.
What kind of proteins do rock produce? And do they pass that ability on to their little stone children?
You really aren't paying attention, are you?
I have said repeatedly that different molecules have different behaviours and undergo different reactions to produce different products. But no molecule operates under different principles.
There's nothing magical about producing proteins - it's just another product of just another reaction.

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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Fosdick, posted 07-12-2007 7:44 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 665 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 97 of 143 (410020)
07-12-2007 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Fosdick
07-12-2007 7:44 PM


Re: Code above-and-beyond DNA?
Hoot Mon writes:
What would it take if Watson and Crick are not enough?
All you did was drop their names. You haven't shown in any way that they agree with you.

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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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