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Author Topic:   The "Digital Code" of DNA
Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5754 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 81 of 143 (409961)
07-12-2007 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by ringo
07-12-2007 12:05 PM


Re: Code above-and-beyond DNA?
kuresu, in his OP, said this:
quote:
Anywho, in the previous thread, unless I'm grossly misrepresenting Hoot Mon's argument, he argues that:
DNA/RNA is a "digital" code. And, while this code is an intrinsic property of DNA, it is not the result of any chemical properties that we know of today. This, he argues, is an argument against any hypothesis of abiogenesis, because he just can't see how this "code" arose. Nevermind the argument of incredulity present.
There is a important inaccuracy in kuresu statement. It's with the words "chemical properties." If you substituted "chemical principles" for "chedmical properties" then the quote would correctly reflect my position:
"DNA/RNA is a "digital" code. And, while this code is an intrinsic property of DNA, it is not the result of any chemical principles that we know of today."
Clearly, the truth is that there are no know chemical principles that account for the evolution of a digital genetic code.
And kuresu also stated in his OP:
quote:
I argue, as do many others:
DNA/RNA are just chemicals. Not something more thanks to this "digital code". This is not a hinderance to any hypothesis of abiogenesis.
I disagree. Nucleic acids are the only molecules we know of that hold digital genetic code. If this is not remarkable and unique in nature then I don't know what is. I believe that abiogenesis must have included the evolution of a digital genetic code. If it did not, then I would have to ask how anything ever got inherited. Without genetic heritability it's hard to imagine how abiogenesis could have taken place.
”HM

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 Message 80 by ringo, posted 07-12-2007 12:05 PM ringo has replied

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Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5754 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 83 of 143 (409965)
07-12-2007 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by New Cat's Eye
07-12-2007 12:04 PM


Re: Code above-and-beyond DNA?
CS wrote:
And words are meaningless unless we apply a meaning to them in the same way that the DNA "code" is meaningless until we apply a meaning to it.
Non sequitur. Who said anything about "meaning" anyway? What kind of meaning do you mean? Synatactical meaning? Onlological meaning? Poetic meaning?
The function of the code is independent of any "meaning" because its all just chemistry. There is no "code" necessary.
Well, yes. But you brought up "meaning."
btw: There is a digital genetic code, and it is necessary.
”HM

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Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5754 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 84 of 143 (409966)
07-12-2007 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by ringo
07-12-2007 12:51 PM


Re: Code above-and-beyond DNA?
All molecules hold the same code - the principles of chemical bonding.
Whew! You still cannot differentiate codes from bondings.
All molecules "inherit" the same principles of chemical bonding.
The "code" is nothing more than that.
I'm afriad you are missing out on something quite interesting. If chemical bonding is all there is to it, then why should the order of the bondings have any relevance to the function of a DNA molecule? By way of your reasoning, a DNA molecule could be ordered in any way and not impair its function...because all the principles of chemical bonding are operating and satisfied.
”HM

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Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5754 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 86 of 143 (409968)
07-12-2007 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by ringo
07-12-2007 1:25 PM


Re: Code above-and-beyond DNA?
Different ordering produces different reactions which produce different products. It's the same for any molecule.
No, it's not. The ordering of DNA is not the same thing as the ordering a quartz crystal. Very different kinds of information are involved. Yes, they all involve chemical bonding, but the quartz crystal has nothing in its structure that even faintly resembles the digital genetic information encoded on a DNA molecule. Their electromagnetic bonding properties and principles may be the same, but their informative properties and principles are quite different.
”HM

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Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5754 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 88 of 143 (409979)
07-12-2007 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by ringo
07-12-2007 1:51 PM


Re: Code above-and-beyond DNA?
Hoot Mon writes:
The ordering of DNA is not the same thing as the ordering a quartz crystal.
Their ordering is based on the same chemical principles.
No they are not”not their ordering. Quartz crystals have no codes that specific structure. Linear digital codes carrying genetic information are found on only one kind of molecule”nucleic acids”and electromagnetic bonding principles do not explain their ordering. Furthermore, a quartz crystal has no heritable properties because it lacks serial generations to which encoded information can be passed.
”HM

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Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5754 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 94 of 143 (410013)
07-12-2007 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by ringo
07-12-2007 4:59 PM


Re: Code above-and-beyond DNA?
I may be a little dopey, mainly for trying to reason with you guys, but I am not disingenuous. There are simply no credible molecular biologists I know of that would deny the unambiguous biological existence of a genetic code. If either you or CS are denying it then you are doing so for reasons apart from science. You would have to be very uninformed to deny the natural existence of a genetic code, and that it is digital. But if you wanted to argue that everything is metaphor, then you could always say that genetic code is just a popular way of speaking that reflects contemporary computer concepts, or some dodge like that. I'm not saying this and neither are credible molecular biologists. We're saying that there is a real, actual, and unambiguous genetic code that engages nucleotides as digits to hold heritable information about the expression of proteins. The code has a celebrated alphabet, but it lacks syntactical meaning and therefore does not qualify as a language (according to Chomsky).
btw: What kind of proteins do rock produce? And do they pass that ability on to their little stone children?
”HM

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 Message 93 by ringo, posted 07-12-2007 4:59 PM ringo has replied

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Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5754 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 96 of 143 (410019)
07-12-2007 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by ringo
07-12-2007 7:36 PM


Re: Code above-and-beyond DNA?
Instead of repeating and repeating that empty claim, why not produce some evidence?
What would it take if Watson and Crick are not enough?

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Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5754 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 98 of 143 (410022)
07-12-2007 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by ringo
07-12-2007 7:50 PM


Re: Code above-and-beyond DNA?
OK. Try this: You can order genes through the Internet (if you're a qualified scientist, I assume). How is this done? By specifying the code”the digital code: TACAGGCTACTA...

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5754 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 99 of 143 (410024)
07-12-2007 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by ringo
07-12-2007 7:50 PM


Re: Code above-and-beyond DNA?
Ringo, are you saying the equivalent of this: 'A Ford is nothing more than summation of its parts. There is no Fordness that goes beyond the physical automobile itself.'
”HM

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Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5754 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 108 of 143 (410127)
07-13-2007 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by ringo
07-12-2007 8:11 PM


Digital polio
Hoot Mon writes:
You can order genes through the Internet....
Ringo asks:
And what can those genes do? Can they produce proteins?
Yup. To wit: US Scientists Create Polio Virus With Mail Order Chemicals
quote:
Scientists in the US have, for the first time, fabricated a working copy of a dangerous disease virus from scratch in the lab, using chemicals obtained by mail order and the publicly available knowledge of the virus's code.
Using harmless pieces of DNA they received through the post [office], researchers at the State University of New York built a synthetic version of the polio virus so like the real thing that it infected mice and made them ill .
The New York team's work, published yesterday in the online version of the journal Science, alarmed polio specialists, but also prompted concerns that other viruses more suitable for biowarfare, such as smallpox, could be synthesised.
.
Written down, the genetic code for polio is only 7,741 letters long .
Show me the Fordness
How about a Ford owner's manual? There's digital Fordness in there.
”HM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by ringo, posted 07-12-2007 8:11 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5754 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 111 of 143 (410142)
07-13-2007 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by ringo
07-13-2007 11:21 AM


Re: Digital polio
Once again, how is the "code" anything other than the structure of the molecule?
Because structure alone does not explain the genetic code”the molecular structure must be arranged to hold its genetic information. You can have a DNA molecule with any arrangement of nucleotides and it's still a DNA molecule. The structure of a DNA molecule is not the primary concern here, because the arrangement of nucleotides into coded information goes a huge step beyond mere structure. You want a DNA molecule to work like a quartz molecule. You want to see all of the information contained in the electromagnetic bonding. You fail to see how a rock is different from sea urchin, because you pull the shade down on anything that is more than just bonding chemistry.
But I suppose you will say, ignorantly, that molecular arrangement is only structure. That's like saying 'a jelly doughnut is only food.' What's the point? ...futility is a bad feeling.
”HM

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Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5754 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 113 of 143 (410147)
07-13-2007 12:39 PM


Tautology 101
...and the arrangement of a song is only music.
”HM

Replies to this message:
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